EP285 - Beyond Recruitment- How to Attract and Retain the Right Staff with Zoe Chatley and Ian Luckett

IAN: In this episode of The IT Experts Podcast, we're going beyond recruitment, and we're going to help you work out how to attract and retain the right team.

INTRO:  Welcome to The IT Experts Podcast, the only podcast to help MSPs scale to 1 million, and if already there, get to five and go faster. At the end of the day, isn't it all about building a business that works for you rather than you for it? I hope you enjoy the show.

IAN: So good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to The IT Experts Podcast. For the second time, we've got the amazing Zoe Chatley from The Channel Recruiter in the house today. How are you doing today, Zoe?

ZOE: I'm very well, thank you, Ian. Thank you very much for having me back again. It's a pleasure.

IAN: No problem at all. So today we're going to take marketing, and we're going to help you overlay it into recruitment on how to attract and keep the right staff. Because through the conversations that we've been having over the last couple of months there's been some real synergies in things that MSPs are either not doing because they're not aware that they need to do them, or by doing them can help you build the most amazing team, keep the most amazing team and, you know, really turn this whole recruitment thing on its head. So rather it being a transactional, I've got a job. Let's just get someone in, fill the job, leave them to it, that's the beginning of the journey. So Zoe, before we get into the meat and the bones on it, just explain, share with our audience who are you, what do you do, and who do you help?

ZOE: Thank you. And thanks for the lovely introduction as well.

IAN: No problem.

ZOE: So yeah. Hi, I'm Zoe Chatley. I'm the founder and owner of The Channel Recruiter. Essentially, we are a specialist recruiter to the IT channel. So we recruit for, you know, IT vendors, distributors, resellers, and MSPs, so right across the industry. But we only focus on this industry, hence the company name being called The Channel Recruiter. So we help businesses hire anything from back office support to sales hires, marketing hires, commercial and technical.

IAN: Great.

ZOE: As long as they fit that brief, you know, whether you're a hardware vendor, software, consumer electronics, even accessories and peripherals, you know, we recruit quite randomly. We recruit for quite a lot of peripheral and accessory manufacturers, but I think everybody needs it. So yeah, a real broad spectrum. I've been in recruitment for 20 years. I solely recruited in the IT channel now for over 15 years, and I set my business up five years ago this year.

IAN: Fantastic.

ZOE: I am, we're growing and, yeah, I quite enjoy being much more than just a recruiter now.

IAN: Yeah.

ZOE: Get to, you know, work really closely with our clients. I get to do cool things like this and speak on panels and, you know, try and help educate businesses on, recruiting and retaining their talent.

IAN: because it's an interesting world, isn't it? Because, are recruitment agencies and is recruitment going to be a dying breed? Are we not going to need it when we all turn into robots and-

ZOE: Yeah.

IAN: All the AI take over? Are you sure? This is going to happen. It said it in the paper the other day.

ZOE: Yeah.

IAN: You know, this is going to happen. And I think, you know, from our point of view, what actually makes this even more powerful is that because, yes, the roles are going to change in tech like they have already, many, many times over and over and over, it just gets even more important of why this is such a key thing, doesn't it?

ZOE: Absolutely. It's, um... I mean we've had it ourselves obviously. There's a lot of conversation around AI being used by recruiters to filter through applications, even interview candidates. We actually did a trial. We got demoed from this new company that's, the candidates flow through this process. It's all online. And they actually have like an AI bot that does an online video interview with them where they are videoed, the-

IAN: Yeah.

ZOE: The person, the candidate, and all the questions that come up are AI. But it was an intelligence that had emotional intelligence. You know? Yeah. If the candidate doesn't understand a question, the bot would say, "Oh, I'm very sorry to, you know, hear that, here's another way of, you know, asking that question." And the results that are coming through are phenomenal. And you do kind of think to yourself, Oh my goodness, like, "Are we going to be replaced?" But I think the answer is no certainly not for a long time because I think you always need that human element.

IAN: Yeah.

ZOE: Like with any sales job. You always need a human behind there who's got the emotional intelligence, the understanding, that ability to look past certain things. Whereas not, AI I think isn't necessarily emotionally intelligent. So I think there's always going to be a need for a recruiter to be sat going through the CVs, looking at all the, the parts and elements of what the skills and experiences that people have in order to make an informed decision to shortlist candidates. But there's a lot, yeah, there's a lot happening,

IAN: There's a lot happening. And you know, when you think about it, we need you know, it's the thinking that we need people to continue to do. Like MSPs need to do the thinking about the logics, the, you know, the logistics of around projects and solutions and things like that. And yes, AI can do some of that. Anyway, we're not talking about AI today. We're going to talk about four things today. We're going to talk about employee branding. We're going to talk about the employee value proposition, the EVP, company culture, and then the company values. And, many people might be listening to this going, Oh, that's just a load of old woo-woo, you don't need all of that kind of stuff. And as I've said many times, when Stuart and I got together we started you know, and I was very keen on DISC and company values and all of that kind of thing, and I had this video program to help our clients to create it. And it made such an impact, even on very small MSPs. And we were like, we actually held a poll the other day, with our clients. There was 65 of them in the room, and we asked them, "How many of you have done your company values, your vision, your mission?"

ZOE: Yeah.

IAN: And literally all bar about three people, and they'd only just joined the program, had done it. Wow. And it was like, wow, that was just amazing that everybody in the room was all on the same page, because that's the kind of like the North Star, isn't it, on where they're going. So, you know, traditional MSPs, techy businesses, they just kind of like truck on. You know, we hear them, you hear them, I'm sure. Been doing this 15, 20 years. Haven't really moved. Haven't really driven forwards. When we go, you know, we're going to get into the detail in a minute. But when you start to embrace this, I guess it's kind of like, it's a cross between strategic and personal leadership, isn't it, as a leader within a business rather than a techie. What starts to happen in the business when you start to bring in things like the culture and the values and the vision? Because, if we were to sell it, if we were to pitch it to the audience today, why do they need to do this, Zoe?

ZOE: So, it's important as a business grows that you understand what your culture is and what you want it to be. Because whenever, you know, whenever a candidate chooses to come and work for a business and, you know, they're made the job offer, they're not just choosing it because the job description fits their skillsets and they can do the job. They're choosing it because they're going to spend five days a week every single week for as how many years, working with people that they've never worked before for a company that, you know, they've not worked before. And the culture is a huge part of the candidate's decision-making. You know, if you go how many times do you hear where you get candidates that don't really put a lot of thought into accepting a job? They just needed a job. So they accepted the first one that came along. And then they get into the business, and the sales directors or whoever, the directors, the owners, the leaders are shouty, sometimes abusive in some sort of way verbally targets are unrealistic, everybody's really miserable, the morale's really low. And they go in and then within a few weeks go, "Oh my God, what have I done?" What have I done?

IAN: Yeah.

ZOE: "What have I walked into?" And so you see this pattern appear of people in particular that have, been in a job for a really long time, that lost their job for whatever reason, been made redundant, and then they take the first job that comes along, and they're there for a few months, and then they're moving again. And that's generally because as a candidate, they've not made necessarily an informed decision-

IAN: Yeah.

ZOE: They've just jumped. And it's exactly the same when you're hiring people. You know, you're trying to add to your culture to make it even better.

IAN: Yeah.

ZOE: And if you're rushing your decision-making and just taking people because they've got the skill set, you're then potentially doing harm to your culture. So it kind of works both ways.

IAN: Yeah.

ZOE: But it's incredibly important for MSPs to think about, what do we want our culture to be as we grow?

IAN: Yeah.

ZOE: What do we, what do we embody? What are our values? All, look, all of these things come into it, so it's always been important, but I think it's only really in recent years that people actually understand what culture is.

IAN: Yeah. And also how it maps with you know, your clients as well, because, the company values and the company culture is, you need to work with people who get IT. You know, we work with obviously many MSPs and some of those have said, "I'll stop working with that industry," because they don't get it. They don't understand it. And, you know, one of those fields is, is accountants. They, you know, they, yes, you know, they're all very manager driven, and they've very much got a good network of people. But if they don't get IT and they don't understand how it's going to take their business forwards, then you know, you're kind of like every time you go up to them and say, "Oh, I need to put your prices up," or, "We've got this new product, it's going to help you keep more safe and secure," they're just not going to get it because they're just kind of like not bought in. You need people to kind of align up with you, don't you? So...

ZOE: you do. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think, there are certain roles that in theory can come from any industry and adapt-

IAN: yeah, yeah.

ZOE: And mold into your business.

IAN: Transferable skills.

ZOE: And finance is actually one of those, but it definitely helps if they've worked for you know, or within the IT industry beforehand, because they might just get it. But quite often finance people, you know, even, customer services or operational roles, they don't necessarily have to understand the IT channel-

IAN: Yeah.

ZOE: But it definitely helps if they do.

IAN: Yeah.

ZOE: Whereas if you're hiring salespeople, certainly at that kind of mid to senior range, or marketing or product management, any commercial roles, I think that's why so many will hire from within the industry-

IAN: Yeah.

ZOE: Because they need to be able to hit the ground running and understand it. And it might be that they just need to train on certain offerings and services and products that particular business sells that's different from what they've done before, but they'll pick it up easily enough.

IAN: I want to pick up on that later on, because that's a really key point that we've just mentioned there. So remind me to talk about transferable skills when we're-

ZOE: Yeah.

IAN: Going through, because-

ZOE: Let me write that down as well.

IAN: Everybody looks for techs who've been working in a tech area, marketing people who are working in a marketing area, and some of the biggest success that we had back in the day when I was working for Virgin Media as it is now, was the fact that we went and recruited a load of people from the hotel industry because they were really good at customer service-

ZOE: Yeah.

IAN: And that was what we wanted.

ZOE: Yeah.

IAN: And it was like, so let's loop back on that-

ZOE: Yes.

IAN: In a couple of minutes.

ZOE: Yeah.

IAN: Let's first of all talk about company branding. What is company branding? Is it just the colors on the website? Is it just, like, the, we don't have letterhead anymore, do we? Is it just a email signature? What would you find as a good company branding?

ZOE: Do you know what? You're so right. When people hear that, they immediately think logo, the visuals the content that's posted. And the truth is, it's everything. But when you look at, if you're going to get a new job, you're looking for a company, one of the first things you'll do these days is go onto somewhere like LinkedIn or Glassdoor, and you will look at, yeah, what the company looks like. Are they pretty looking company? Do they have nice offices? Where are they based? How many people work for that company? How many leaders do they have in that business? What do they stand for? What are their values? Are they a company that values integrity, honesty, clear communication?

All of these things are wrapped into your branding and how you promote yourself as an employer. If you look at, I'm going to use a bigger business as an example. Softcat.

IAN: Yeah.

ZOE: One of the most highly recognisable businesses in the IT channel. When they first started out, they were small. They were based in Marlow. But what stood out for me as a recruiter, because, and one of the reasons I wanted to recruit them, is because their employment branding was spot on. The way they promoted themselves as an employer of choice

IAN: Yeah.

ZOE: In terms of not only will we take on apprentices and we'll train you and teach you about the industry and we'll build up your career, they offer great benefits. They had a good employee, value proposition, good holiday days, good commission structures. They did fun social events, and they promoted it all across their website and their social media. Come and work for us. Look at all this cool stuff that we do. Look at all these benefits and things that our employees can get from us. They'll win holidays, money, branded, you know, clothing or whatever it might be. You know, because all their vendors come in and do spiff days and they can get all this. And they talk about it, the content that they were putting out on their website at the time in, when did I go and see them? Probably 20- 2019? Or, no, 2009 even.

IAN: Wow.

ZOE: You know, so years ago. And that was before LinkedIn was even anywhere near as big as it is now. And now, you know, promoting your employer brand is even easier because social media has given them a platform to be able to promote themselves that, why should you come and work for us? And that is essentially what employer branding is it's your employee value proposition, it's how you promote yourselves, but it's also about how those employees feel working for them. Are they a recommended employer? Do their employees enjoy working for them, and why? And then again, promoting that so that everybody can see. So Glassdoor is obviously commonly used now to rate your employer. The... I'm hit-and-miss on Glassdoor because I think a lot of people leave there, and then they post negative comments-

IAN: yeah, slag it off. Yeah.

ZOE: On why they left. So then employers are having to work really, really hard to get their current employees to post positive reviews on there to balance things out. Sometimes it's a little bit skewed. But as an employee or a potential candidate, one of the things people will do is look on Glassdoor to see what their score is, and that is all your employer branding. So it's all about that positive appearance, but truly embodying your culture, and not just saying, "We're great at this, and the other," actually being great at those things. And your employees and people that work for you also saying, "Yeah, we love working here because of this. We get this.

IAN: Love it.

ZOE: Our care- you know, we're valued, we're promoted, we're developed, we get training. So all of those things wrapped into it is what makes a good employer brand.

IAN: Great stuff. Absolutely love that. Love that. At the end of this show, we're going to come to the quick wins. So what MSPs need to do as a quick win that's going to cover everything off. Otherwise, we're just going to digress and we're going to be on here for hours. But we-

ZOE: We really should.

IAN: Which is not a problem, but let's keep it super focused. Right.

STUART INTERRUPT: If scaling your MSP is your goal, but you're not sure which road to take, then you'll really want to get hold of the MSP Growth Guide. It's the shortcut most MSPs wish they had much earlier on to work out what the right support is for them. Even better, if you like meeting up in person, why not come to join us at one of our live events? See the system, meet the people, get inspired, get to kick the tires and see exactly what we get up to at the Growth Hub. So, details are on the show notes below. Go have a look, click, and come and join us, and we look forward to seeing you another time. But let's get back to the show.

IAN: Thanks, Stuart.

Let's talk about EVP, employee value proposition. It's no longer about the fact of do you want this job because I'm going to select whether you want the job or not. It's turned the other way around now, hasn't it?

ZOE: 100%, yeah. Candidates, like I mentioned earlier, most candidates when they're choosing their next career step are thinking a lot more about what they really want from an employer, as well as the job role itself. So when you break down your employee value proposition, if I asked an MSP now, "What's your EVP?" They'd probably look at me blankly and go, "I have no idea." But what it is essentially what you're offering your employees, what makes you good. So do you offer hybrid working, remote? Are you fully office based? What flexibility is there for you? So, you know, whether you offer 20 days holiday or 25 days holiday or 30 days holiday, private healthcare, a good pension scheme Maternity, paternity, all of those things. Your working hours. Really, really silly, but a lot of candidates will look at that now and say, "Is it a standard 9:00 till 5:00 job, or do they let us finish early on a Friday?" You know, little things like that actually make a massive difference. Yeah. Do they have to book a holiday to go to see the doctor, or to take their child to see the doctor, or work from home because the child, their child is poorly? All those things are meant your EVP. So when I think about our employee value position, you know, we offer flexible working. We offer pretty much unlimited holiday, finishing work early. We've got several mums that work, you know, working parents. And they'll work school hours, 9:00 till 3:00, or 9:00 till 4:00 on certain days. If they need to take their child to the doctor's or work offline, so to speak, because they're looking after the child, they're not having to book holiday and use the day's holiday to do that. And this is what many clients out there, many businesses across the industry are learning more and more and more about now is, what can we offer our employees that's going to keep them really happy and make us a good employer of choice? Yeah. So it's gone far beyond, "We're great to work for." It's why are you great to work for? And it's because you've got a strong EVP. And it all wraps into the culture and everything else.

IAN: Where does that show up, then? Does that show up at the interview stage, or does it have to come out in the job description, or is it on, do you have to put it on your website? Where do you need to tell everybody about these great things?

ZOE: Yeah, all of it. I mean some people will have it already in their job descriptions. You'll quite often find in a job description they'd got obviously the duties, what they're looking for, and then what we offer. What are our benefits? And they'll list in there days holiday working hours whether they've got pension schemes, you know, healthcare, all of these things. Cycle to work schemes, charity days, volunteer days, whatever it might be. That, you know, having quite often we hear people like, "Oh, we give people a day off if their birthday's a working day." Great. Loads of businesses do that. So what? And you'll hear that a lot now. We'll, you know, when we're taking briefs from our clients, we always have to go in there with a, so what? Attitude. So are your competitors. What makes you different? And that's the thing they need to think about. And so they will promote it on their websites, their job descriptions, the adverts and also part of the contract when people are signing in. It's all very well saying you offer all of these things, but quite often people want to see it in writing as well. And get those benefits in your contract as well, or on the offer letters. So it's not just all smoke, you know, and mirrors, it's actually lived.

IAN: I guess it's the same philosophy as, um, you know, we, we interviewed recently Marcus Sheridan from Endless Customers and They Ask You Answer, and he was saying that you know, 80% now of a buying decision is made online before someone even gets in contact with you. So this must be now the truth. Before even anyone applies for your job, they're going to be scouting your website, your LinkedIn, you know, any social channels you've got to kind of see how you show up and all of that kind of stuff, which is really key thing. So-

ZOE: Absolutely.

IAN: Interesting EVP. We spoke a minute ago about company culture. Not going to kind of repeat myself there, but this kind of encapsulates everything that we're talking about today, the culture. But how does an MSP measure company culture? How do they know if they've got a good company culture or not?

ZOE: So one of the easiest ways to measure it is by looking at your staff retention. So the, for me, it doesn't really matter how many employees you've got, how long have they been there for, and the people that have left, why have they left? So it's really important, especially as your business grows, that you ask your employees how they feel about the jobs they're doing, the managers they're working underneath the teams that they're in. And you can do this by doing anonymous questionnaires, employee questionnaires. When you have staff members who are leaving, do an exit interview, and that's something that's normally carried out by HR, but line managers and directors, if you don't have an established HR team, can also conduct those interviews as well. Why is that person leaving? Because you can learn a lot from that and build from it. You know, is it because they've been really unhappy with the manager that they're working with? Is it because they don't feel they're earning enough and the benefits they offer aren't good enough, and actually a whopping role's come along with 10 grand more on the base and five days more holiday? Those are the types of things that allow you then to measure it, but I think retention is the key thing here. If you work, you know, I've got clients that, you know, businesses who when you look at their employees, you've got individuals that have been there 10, 15, 16 years. Why are they still there today? And then you look across the rest of the business and you've got people that have been there five years, six years. So generally they're not actually recruiting loads because they're retaining their staff so well. And actually when they do recruit, it's because of growth. They're not replacing. It's purely down to growth. I've got a number of examples of businesses I've worked with for a long time, and the only time they ever recruit is when they're taking on a new vendor and they need someone to look after them so growth roles, or they've got aspirations to achieve X, by 2027, and therefore in order to do that, they need more sales people, marketing, so therefore cash injections come in, and they're hiring again down to growth. And when you dig down deep, you look at the employees that work there, and we're selling this, we're like, "People don't leave this organisation because they really enjoy working there."

IAN: Yeah.

ZOE: That's a great measure of successful retention.

IAN: Simple as that. One thing that some people don't find simple is company values trying to work out how do we create the company values? Why do I need the company values? Little bit of a sales pitch on this one, Zoe. What's this all about? Why do people need the values? What does it help them do?

ZOE: Oh, do you know what? I sometimes find this question really, really hard to answer. I had to do it myself. Last year I got my entire team down, and we were a little bit bigger then. We've gone a bit smaller again. And had no idea really what our values were. I knew what my values were. But then I was like, what are we trying to, what are our values that we're trying to project into the market? And essentially, that's what you have to do. It's about embodying what you as a business are projecting into your market, to your customer base, to your employees. To, you know, whatever it might be. So when you think about values, I think about loyalty, integrity, honesty, clear communication. You know, those are things that as a recruiter we have to embody. You know, as an MSP, that's what you need to think about is, okay, it's not just about your values as an employer, it's your values as a business. Why would a customer come and work ... why would a customer work with you over your competitor? Is it because they value your honesty, they like that you're, you know, you hold yourself to high integrity, you're loyal to them, and you showcase that by giving them the best deal, by working with them really, really closely by communicating really, really clearly with them? That's why your customer is staying with you. And actually, the image you're projecting works well with the values of your business. And that's something that as a customer they also mirror. They have the same values as you. So it's quite important. I'm probably answering several questions here, but if you don't know what your values are, sit down with your team, not just your leadership team, your company. Get individuals, if you're a bigger MSP, get individuals from each of your departments, sit down around a table and write down, brainstorm what you want your company values to be, what are important to you as, employees, but also as, an MSP in the market. What are you trying to project into the market? And hold yourself accountable to those values, because your customers will value those values, if that makes sense.

IAN: Absolutely. And it's, and it's so key. You've that's exactly the process that we kind of go through, and, the only thing that I'd add to that is that if you were going to clone one of your employees because they were really good and they're just that company person what values do they have, yeah. And work...

ZOE: high impact individuals. I did a part of a interview training that I do with hiring managers, we also talk about high impact individuals and why they are an impactful individual. And it's because they're the person that's the team player, person that when the chips are down, they're the one rallying the troops. They're the one getting the team going, supporting you as the hiring manager, always being your right-hand person, the person you can rely on to deliver time and time again. I talked about this, I think, a little bit on our previous podcast. When you hire, don't hire for need, hire for strength. And, you know, when you hire for strength and you add that value to your team, it impacts everything that you embody as an employer.

IAN: Yeah. Love it. That's brilliant. Great. We've got those areas covered off. Now for the bonus question whether an MSP is going to use a recruitment agency or whether they're going to go and try and do things themselves I hear every single day, as I'm sure you do, "I just can't find the right people," "they're just not the right thing." Now, we know that you, you know, you hire on culture and behaviours, and then obviously skillsets, you're going to need skillsets to a level, but you can teach people to do things. But if they're an absolutely, you know, if they're an absolute person we don't want in the business, you're not going to be able to teach them to do anything. So very much on those values and everything we've spoken about, lining up to make sure everything's in place. What's your transferable skills hack list? Where else should MSPs look, or where else have you had success in hiring outside of the industry for various roles?

ZOE: So, sales roles, especially at junior level, are one of the first areas I think you should look at outside of the industry. There's a bit of a lack at the moment. I think there's a feel that there's a lack of hard work being done by salespeople, for example. We've got a lot of lazy salespeople, I'm just going to call it as it is. People that would prefer to manage accounts rather than hunt down new business. And sales is sometimes one of the trickier areas to recruit in, so I'm trying to encourage a lot of our clients at the moment to look outside of the industry. And the reason being is that if you hire from industry, that's absolutely fine. They're going to be able to hit the ground running, in theory. They understand the industry, they understand IT, the products, the services, and who to sell to. But are they driven? Are they motivated? Are you just copying, pasting, like for like all the time? Where actually, if you go outside of your industry and hire people that have maybe done recruitment with salespeople sold cars worked in a telesales environment, for example. People that are used to being customer-facing or dealing with customers on a daily basis, that are used to you know, hitting targets or being on the phone, having to make multiple sales calls every single day, they've got resilience, tenacity, they're driven, they're hungry. You can find that outside in any industry where there are salespeople. And how you hire for that is looking at the competencies that are really, really key there. So I mentioned about resilience, tenacity. When you're recruiting and you're interviewing these individuals, ask them to give you examples of a sale that they recently won. How did they did it? How did they did it? How did they do it? What, you know, what was it? How did they do it? What the results were. And when you look into the competencies of it, those competencies can be transferred from any external industry. It doesn't just have to be IT. Obviously, when, you know, you look at other more senior positions, quite often it's harder to go outside of the industry. But you can go outside of industry for sales, marketing, technical. You can go we've recruited IT support, first line support people who have been customer services in Tesco's and Sainsbury's and companies like that. Yeah, brilliant. Why? Because they're good dealing with people. And they can transfer those skills onto a phone where they're doing first line support. And it's a great stepping stone into IT and into an IT role.

IAN: Brilliant stuff.

ZOE: Just, I could go on about this for ages but I probably over-answered that question.

IAN: No, I just, I'm just interested. You know, we, within the sphere of influence that we have, you know, most of our MSPs are kind of like sub five million. There's not that many salespeople around, it's more around account management and the technical side of things. When they've exhausted the list of technical, where else do you think they should look for technical level people?

ZOE: A lot of companies in the private sector and public sector will have internal IT teams. You know, they've got desktop support, they've got solutions architects. So if you're struggling to hire from within the IT channel, because, ideally you want them to have worked with distis or resellers or whatever. Go to the private sector. There's some incredible individuals that worked in private sector, working in public sector for the NHS or local government who have got all the IT skills. What they've not done necessarily is maybe done a customer-facing role within the IT channel or to end user, if that makes sense. But the technical knowledge is there. You just need to help them transition into the industry.

IAN: I did hear, actually, one of the best hires that one of our clients made was a IT manager from a large he was in an IT department. Really good really great individual, but he couldn't make a difference because the business was too big. So now he stepped into a smaller MSP where he can make a difference, and he's absolutely flying because it's like, "I can actually breathe again. I can live again," you know? And it's kind of like looking for those sort of things, which I think-

ZOE: Absolutely ...

IAN: I think a great story.

ZOE: Like, our part of your EVP is about, you know, we talked about benefits, but actually it's also about learning and development. So when you've got individuals that, want to be challenged and developed, and you're allowing them to do that, you- whether you're increasing their knowledge by putting them on courses, management courses, whatever it might be. You're developing their skillset, but also it's about identifying what they're really really good at and where, what they enjoy, you know? How many people do you hear have left an organisation because they're not being challenged enough? Not being developed enough.

IAN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

ZOE: And they don't feel heard and seen, so therefore, they go to smaller organisations where they become a bigger cog in a smaller wheel, where they can really make an impact.

IAN: Brilliant stuff.

ZOE: And that's what people want, you know?

IAN: Exactly.

ZOE: Do you want people that just do the same job every single day, and they do a great job at it, and that's fine. They'll be with you 20 years. Or do you want to develop that individual and bring them into the fold and give them more, that they will then feel more valued and more appreciated?

IAN: Fantastic. Love it. We have run quite a long runway here. We've covered an awful lot. What's the quick wins for the MSP? If we were to summarise this show and say as an absolute minimum, in the next 30 days, every MSP listening to this needs to do over to you, Zoe.

ZOE: Look at your, so look at your internal culture. Understand what you want to achieve. Write those things down. Sit down with your team and log it, and then embody what that culture and that value is. Look at your current EVP. What do you offer your employees currently? Could you do more? Is there more that would attract more people and also help you retain the good staff that you have currently? And voice those EVPs. Voice your employment branding. Yeah. Promote yourself. You can do that from day one. Start talking about your business and why it's good to not only work with your business, but come and work for your business as well. Don't be afraid to talk really really positively, openly and honestly to the industry. Voice it. Speak it. Shout from the hilltops.

IAN: Absolutely love it.

ZOE: And that will help build your employer brand.

IAN: That is brilliant. I absolutely love it. Zoe, thank you very much, for your time today. I would say time in preparing for this show, but when we came on, we didn't have a script, so we just went with it.

ZOE: We really did.

IAN: But I think we managed to, I think we managed to pull it out the bag. We did. If anybody wants to continue the conversation with you about what you do and how you can possibly help them, how do they get in contact with you?

ZOE: Yeah. So you can obviously contact me through LinkedIn. I'm all over LinkedIn. You won't miss me or you can email me on zoe@thechannelrecruiter.co.uk. And yeah, we can have a conversation and go from there.

IAN: Fantastic. Thanks very much. Send over those links.

ZOE: Thank you, Ian.

IAN: We'll get them into the show notes. And all the best with your business. And good luck, for the rest of this year, and may it long may it continue.

ZOE: Thank you very much, Ian.

IAN: Great stuff.

ZOE: See you soon.

IAN: Catch up with you soon. Take care. Bye now.

NEXT WEEK TEASER: Just before you go, you do not want to miss next week's show. In actual fact, we've got a double show for you next week. It's a two-parter, and it's called Get Your Time Back, part one and two. Part one is all going to be around helping you not confuse activity with achievement so you can get more done, and part two is going to help you stop becoming the default decision-maker in your MSP. If you're busy, if you've ever said that you're busy or said that you haven't got time, you've got anything to do, you are going to enjoy the next two week shows. So buckle up, enjoy the week ahead, and I'll look forward to seeing you next week.

OUTRO: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Just before you go. And if you're curious about how this episode links with the ability to scale your MSP to a million, or, or if you're already there, accelerate to five, then we want to invite you to come and take the MSP Mastery quiz. And in just three minutes, you're going to get a 360 degree scan of your business, where you can identify the one or two tactics that can help you find more time, engage and align your people, and help generate more leads in your MSP. It's really simple, just click on the link in the show notes. And if you have enjoyed this episode, we'd love to get some feedback from you by means of a rating, a review on Spotify or iTunes or your podcast platform of choice. We really appreciate every single one of them. Now you can go and enjoy the rest of your day, and we look forward to catching up and connecting with you soon. All the best now.