EP181 – Ask Stuart #15 - We Don’t Agree…Now What? With Ian Luckett & Stuart Warwick

INTRO

IAN

In this episode of the IT experts. Podcast we talk about Porsches, BMWs0 trucks, and Mercedes.

Welcome to the IT Experts Podcast, the only podcast to help MSP scale to 1,000,000, and if already there get to 5 and go fast at the end of the day, isn't it all about building a business that works for you rather than you for it? I Hope you enjoy the show.

IAN

So, good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to the IT Experts podcast. You're probably wondering what on Earth has just gone on in that little bit of an intro there, but.

STUART

And no, this isn't for petrol heads.

IAN

And this isn't for petrol heads and electric car owners alike, don't even. No, don't go there anyway. Hello, Stuart. Welcome to the podcast.

STUART

Hello, Ian. Good to be back.

IAN

Right, Okay. We have no idea what to call this podcast. It's going to be a really good one because we've planned it out and apart from the first little bit, which is going to be a bit clunky. Essentially what we're talking about today is helping the MSP business owners out there. We've recently done a podcast on what to do when you're not aligned with your business partner and how to get aligned on the same page which is going to which is a bit of a slower process than what we're going to do today because we're going to help you to remove any conflict, remove any disagreement when you've one of you wants to go one way. One of you wants to go another way. We've got some amazing tactics, which obviously evolves around cars because that's just great. And the analogy we're going to use today is He's using a system we've just called the vehicle tree, which is, just, Stuart, put some context behind this. Help me out with the...

STUART

Well, we can't agree now what and what it feels like. We can't agree. Have you ever been in a meeting with either a business partner or a team or even an individual might be a member of staff if we keep it in the business context where you don't seem to be able to agree and you're bickering in disagreement or different points of view. About detail and that's the issue is that you're disagreeing over detail. You're down in the weeds and it, you know, you come out of meetings like that and they just don't get it or he doesn't get it or she doesn't get it or they don't get it. And then you have the next board meeting or team meeting and it seems to still be there. The same issue that you are all entrenched in your own point of view and that's the issue that we're talking about today trucks, BMW's motorcycles, Porsches and Mercedes.

IAN

Then you know and the fear and the problem and the challenge that that we've got, you know, going along here is there might be some, some slight alignment disagreement. There might be some, you know direction, energy, passion, different types of people. Some people moving first moving faster forwards quicker than others. Some people getting caught up in the detail, but it just feels to you like you know the business isn't working for me, it's slow, it's disjointed. And if it carries on like this, I'm just going to sell it and that is the fear, and that is the risk aligned with the fear is that, particularly between business owners and if there's two of you, three of you, four of you. If you can't seem to agree or get consensus and it stops you all being effective in your own roles. And therefore, collectively the business isn't moving forward to where you want it go. But when you engage and talk about it, you end up arguing over, you know, real detail, yeah, the issue isn't the detail. It's not the BMW or the Mercedes that you're arguing over. You've got to get clear. It's not about the brand of car you buy and it's not even about whether it's a car or a motorcycle, but you need to agree what the mode of transport is. And it's not even the roads that you're going to take, it's actually about where are we going? Yeah. And if you can stop the conversation and say, well, let's stop arguing over the actual type of brand that we're going to buy and talk about where do we want to go. We might realise, actually, it's very clear what we need.

So this came from one of our boardroom sessions, a recent boardroom sessions with our seven figure clients. And Julie was there our leadership coach amazing Julie, hello if you're listening and we were talking about you know how to how to, how to stop getting herself into the detail and she came up with this rather incredible entertaining flipchart on what we're now calling, the vehicle tree. So explain to me how does the vehicle tree? What the hell is it? How does it work? Well, what's the concept behind this hierarchy of vehicles.

STUART

Well, it's exactly a hierarchy of conversation that it's a metaphor for a for level of conversation and when a board, a board, you know, team of board members or a team management team or even a small team, you know, team of Engineers are stuck in the detail can't agree. It's normally because they're just too low down in the conversation hierarchy and we need to step it up. Do we need, you know, do we need to actually take it right back to bare bones, and where are we going as a team. What's the purpose of us being as a team, you know, we talk so many times in podcasts about vision. Yeah, you know, and having a plan and actually at team level or department level or company level, where are we going, and if we actually just check back into where we're headed and what our goals are and go, well, actually, the thing that we're stuck on and arguing about is it going. Is it going to help us get where we doing and when you chunk up. You suddenly start to take the conflict away and the disagreement away and the friction away, because actually let's go back to the beginning. Are we agreed that this is what we plan to do as a business? Yes. Okay. So if we agreed on the destination, let's talk about the vehicle, you know? Do we need a ship?

IAN

Move down.

STUART

A car, a motorcycle, a truck. A tank. Okay, let's agree. Okay, what type of tank or car is it that we think we need. What's the budget? Do you see what I mean? Instead of arguing over the budget and going, actually, the budget's not the thing. It's actually, ohh, we agree that we need something. Yeah. With four wheels to get us from A to B to achieve the goal. Yes. Great.

IAN

And then you're on that journey. So it's kind of like which, well, which road are we going to take and as and as you're kind of going further and further down and then the bottom line was the brand of the car, wasn't it?

STUART

Yeah. Completely, completely and I suppose what we're talking about here is if you're in conflict or feel you're in conflict or feel that you're stuck in making progress in your business and it's you feel like it's others not understanding you or hearing you, it's possible that you're talking at too lower level of detail. And actually if you can get aligned with what you do agree on, and that you are agreed that that we need a PSA. It's just a question of what type of PSA do we need, do we care what brand it is? Because actually what we want from is a certain amount of functionality.

IAN

So when you find yourself in the detail not getting anywhere, getting stuck, you're in the weeds and you just about kind of had enough of it and your blood pressure is going through the roof. You're basically saying just go up a level to the tree until you find a point where you agree. If you get to the top and you don't agree, you're in the wrong business. By the way, that's another podcast.

STUART

Well, that's a conversation then to have. Okay. Yeah. Well, how do we how do we get on the right, you know, agree on the right destination? Because if we can't, then maybe as you say we shouldn't be in business together.

IAN

And then if you start then talking about what outcome do we want each? You know, what does success at the top level look like? What does success at the next level look like then? The dreaded thing comes in and it's not on the sheet. Stop looking for its Stewart roles and responsibilities so you get to a point where you do agree, but I think I need to do it this way. You think you need to do it that way. But we actually need to agree who's responsible for this. What does success look like? Stay out on my swimming lane, please, while I deal with this. Do you know what I need to do? What resources do I need to enable me to achieve this goal? This is something that comes up quite a bit, doesn't it. Because you then get the I'm going to say it, the meddling manager coming out of you and you want to get involved because it might not be working faster or anything like that. How can we help, you know, the listeners to? You know, provide that clarity, that response, that confidence that you know what it is, each individual business partners responsible for to keep them out of each other's.

STUART

I think you've said it. It's the roles and responsibilities, but I think it's about trust, and If you agreed on the destination and you're agreed on the on the route. But actually, do you care the mode of transport. And you can say, do you know what I don't care how we get there. I don't want to have to get involved in in getting in making decisions about how we get there. You do it. And if that person takes on that responsibility, then don't discuss with them what brand of car they get involved, as long as it's within the resources assigned, which is the budget, and I think it's a bit like when we do events. You love all the technology. I don't care about the technology. I don't care what microphone we use. I just want to make sure it's well recorded and our team edit it really well because we've got an amazing message to get out there and I don't give two hoots, but if you go and spend 10 grand on a microphone, I will care 2 hoots I am.

IAN

You're just pulling me back there, aren't you?

STUART

I am, I am and because otherwise we would spend our time then, fiddling around with microphones and not building an amazing business, and I think that's the important piece if you are, if you are feeling stuck in an individual or team or you know director level conversation and you feel entrenched over a particular point, chunk up, step back.

IAN

Yeah, exactly.

STUART

Get perspectives. Yeah, the old wood for the trees. Yeah. And think, are we agreed at a higher level and then you chunk back down. Yeah. So actually, do I care that we're disagreeing over the color or is it my responsibility? No, I just want to let it go and let the person responsible who's perhaps more qualified than me. You're more knowledgeable about microphones and technology than me, so I might as well let it go and get on with something more important.

IAN

I'm going to say a phrase now, which one listener in particular is going to laugh. It's going to absolutely laugh their little cockles off about this, but I just want to double click on a word you just mentioned, then trust. So very important, obviously with business partners that we have this trust, if you're then at a point where you're part, you're in part of the the vehicle tree as we call it now. And you feel that your partner, you don't trust your partner or your partner doesn't trust you? Just in this one little element, how do we start to the analogies of flying today, Stuart, how do we start to unwrap this onion? Because it's a really important one, isn't it? Because if I don't trust you and you don't trust me to not go and buy a 10,000 number of microphones, thanks for that signed off. And you know, we're not going to move forwards and if we don't talk about it, I guess that's also going to be a bit of a moment, isn't it?

STUART

We're not. Well, I think the first thing is how do we peel the onion with a potato peeler. But the daring me.

IAN

Bloody hell. Right. Come on, keep going.

STUART

So how do we peel this onion trust? Well, what if it's a really good question, actually really good question.

IAN

You need to pad for a bit long. Shall I sing a song?

STUART

A trust. Well, if you haven't got it, there's a problem. Yeah, there's a problem and but wvehihy, I suppose if you can't let go of somebody getting on with the deal. So if we're talking Porsche BMW's, you know, trucks. And you can't let go of the detail, then perhaps there is an issue around trust and control. And how is that serving you cause actually? If you can't let go, and therefore you stay stuck with that person or Paul, I can't move forward. The consequence is long term or even short term will show up.

You know clients won't get delivered to mistakes or happen. You know you won't hire new people. You won't get in the car to get to the journey, you know you won't turn up. You won't get to where you want to go, and that has consequences. The consequences on you know, revenue profit, stress time off. Time out. Exit all kinds of different things. So, if you feel stuck to the point where you can't chunk up or can't let go, the sooner you recognize that and recognize is it something in me? Yeah, that isn't letting go or doesn't want to let go then that's a really great question to ask yourself or is it getting them to the other person or people to say, well, why can't they let go? Where? Why can't we chunk up and get to a point where we can agree and then realise that actually we don't need to worry about what brand of car we buy. But if we keep coming back, then there's something more serious missing and we need to chunk it up again because ultimately, if we're not on the same page in terms of destination thenthe ultimate reason as to why we're together. So I know we're talking about, I'm, you know, peeling the onion of trust. But that's a really, really key point. Because again, if you look at a team trust, if you look at having a team and if you're a single business owner, MSP and your team don't deep down trust where you're going, you'll lose good people. You won't keep people. People leave people. They don't leave businesses. They leave the people that represent that business. So yeah, it's a really, really big question.

IAN

And it's breaking down that individual. What's a success that like out of this particular question, you know, out of this out of this area and do we both agree that that's what success is like? Yeah. Do you, do you think I can do it, do you think I can do this, do you think I can do what, who do I need in the team to help me with this, do I need some other resources, do I need some training, do I need some, you know investment or whatever that looks like and then it it's kind of like reverse it. It's kind of, I suppose if I'm the one who's who the business partner is, not trust it then or that doesn't feel that you c an trust you, then it's a case of proving, isn't it? It's kind of like the reverse thing of what we do when we're delegating. So it's a case. Okay, well, let's get a check in in a week's time, see how it's going. See how I'm getting on, and I'll let you know. But you've got to trust me on this and stay out of my swimming lane because this is, you know, this. This is where I am the accountable director. That's of this X. A percentage of the business.

STUART

You know that you're both accountable to each other to deliver certain aspects of the business and when you're not aligned. So let's say you've got a £400,000 MP and there's two directors and they have this aspiration to, you know, improve the ability and move it towards being a 7 figure MSP so doubling the business. Yeah, we know that those that do it the fastest with the least number of mistakes can do that. In somewhere between 24 and 36 months longer, sometimes. But the fastest do it in about 24 to 36 months and that's a lot of work involved and there's ups and downs because there's a significant amount of change needed to achieve that. But in 24 to 36 months you can take a 450 MSP and turn it into 809K . And transformed on the profit side, absolutely transform. But there's also businesses that in three years time those same 36 months will still be out 400 K 450 because they're not embracing the things they should be. And it may be that they're arguing and disagreeing or not talking about the high level stuff of what they need to do the mode of transport.

Or where they go and how they get there as opposed to the detail of what server goes in here to that client, you've got a chunk up and I think that shows up if you're an aspirational MSP that wants to grow. Their MSP wants more time or profit, more freedom from it over the next three to five years. And if you think back to the last three to five years and if you've been trying to kind of achieve that and you haven't and you're still at around the same mark, give or take then there's something. That's getting in the way.

And it's probably you and the conversations and the level of your thinking with you and your business partner or yourself.

IAN

Brilliant. Absolutely love it. Great episode, Stuart. Lots to think about, probably one that might need to go back and listen to again if you're in a business relationship where things might not be going as swimmingly as you like and you want to bring a little bit of a car analogy into it. So why? Not Why Not Indeed. Final thoughts, Stuart.

STUART

Yeah. The vehicle tree. If your level of conversation is at too low a level. It will slow you and your business down and the faster you chunk it up to a level where you can get agreement either with yourself or with those you're working with, the faster you'll go. And for those MSP business owners we've just talked about the fact that you know, you could if you wish to double your double your revenues and you know quadruple, triple quadruple your profits in the next two to three years. If you do the right things. If you want to take longer, then that's completely down to you.

IAN

Fantastic. Absolutely. Love it. Thanks ever so much. We will look forward to catching up with you on the next show.

STUART

Yeah, love it will do. Cheers.

IAN

Catch you soon. Bye.

OUTRO

Way, way, way, way way, just before you go, and if you’re curious about how this episode links with the ability to scale your MSP to a million or if you're already there, accelerate to five, then one invite you to come and take the MSP marketing quiz and in just three minutes you're going to get 300 and you scan of your business where you can identify the one or two tactics that help you find more time engaging. From your people help generate more leads in your emotes peace it's simple. Just click on the link in the show notes and if you have enjoyed this episode, we'd love to get some feedback from you by means of a racing review on Spotify or iTunes or your podcast platform of choice. We really appreciate every single one. Now you can go and enjoy the rest of your day and we look forward to it up and connect to you. All the best.