EP222 – STOP Attracting the Wrong People to Your MSP with Julie Hutchison & Ian Luckett

IAN: In this episode of the IT Experts Podcast, we're going to help you stop attracting the wrong people towards your MSP.

INTRO: Welcome to the IT Experts Podcast, the only podcast to help MSPs scale to 1 million, and if already there, get to 5 and go fast. At the end of the day, isn't it all about building a business that works for you rather than you for it? I hope you enjoy the show.

IAN: So good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to the IT Experts Podcast. We've got a bit of an emergency show we need to share with the IT channel today, haven't we, Julie?

JULIE: We have indeed.

IAN: We've got Julie Hutchinson, our amazing leadership coach back in the podcast lounge today. There was a bit of a situation, a bit of a conversation that happened with one of our clients recently, and Julie is going to help you walk through that and understand what it was all about. But it was very interesting. Their different perception on is about recruiting the right or the wrong people. And how do we demonstrate that the people coming towards us are the right people? Do they have the right behaviors? How are we measuring those behaviors? And the output of this podcast is to give you a bit of a framework and give you some insights into the methodology and the process you need to go through to make sure that anybody you've got coming to interview, or at least people you're actually going to want to recruit and you know what they're talking about to get away from any of these blindsidedness that people are doing as they're trying to go through the interview process Julie. Give us a bit of context to stop me waffling.

JULIE: I was wondering when you were going to stop. Yeah. So basically, and this is not just one MSP that I speak to. Obviously we speak to lots of your clients. But quite a few people, but specifically one more recently ask me about what do I do about, oh, this person, I thought they were great and they don't fit or they're not turning out to be the way I thought they were going to be, or they just, oh, they're not as dynamic as I wanted or they're nothing like I thought they were and the context of what happened this specific incident was we were talking about recruiting and there was some lovely guys your clients who were frustrated by the fact that they were attracting people for interview, whether they think, I think actually they had actually given some of the role previously and they didn't work out, but they were even attracted for interview the people that were yeah. Not in the way that they wanted them to be. So they wanted somebody who was going to be really open to change and take their business forward in a certain area and be quite dynamic and have lots of communication skills and all of those things and some technical skills, of course, and yet what was happening was, they were getting people that were very nice and were technically capable, but were not particularly dynamic. And these two are quite dynamic. They wanted somebody who was a fit, but they wanted somebody who was going to be able to take that department forward so that they could trust that person to let it go, to let them get on with it. And it wasn't happening, and what was really interesting, Ian, was that when I asked them, what's the interview process, they're like yeah, we're good with the interview process. We know what we're doing. But actually, when we came down to it, what we would, what was happening was, there were actually almost actively attracting the wrong person without knowing it, and so at the end of this session, one of the people that was most responsible for doing the recruitment almost ran out of the room ready to change the process and change what they were saying to better equip them to get the person that they really felt would be the best fit and with the behavioral profile that they wanted. And yeah, that was basically the context of it. That was long, wasn't it? And so I thought it was really important that we actually share a little bit of this, because I think everybody's having this issue, let's say.

IAN: Absolutely. Just something that you just touched on there different let's just take the technical aspect of engineers, for example, looking at salary bands, we've got people who you know, and I'll be blunt as I always am people who just going to do some stuff and they're just going to be really great techies. Then we've got people who we want to actually think and to come to me with some ideas and some suggestions and be a little bit proactive. And then you've got the people who you want to drive like the business force, like the SDM type of thing. Do you feel, and I don't know , what these bands are, but do people sometimes get stuck on what I'm only going to pay 45, 000 and I want them to drive the business or I'm only going to pay them this and I want them to do that? Do people get fixated on where they think they're a level one, level two, level three, rather than actually look at what that role is going to be in the future? Do they sometimes try and over promote into or over recruit into further more experienced people?

JULIE: Ooh, that's an interesting one. I think there's a couple of things there. I think that when you said the word just in there, which was a, just an engineer, which I think is a dangerous thing, by the way. And you, and then the next level is the person that you want to think. So I'm going to challenge that for a moment. No.

IAN: Yeah. I was just...

JULIE: I was going to challenge it because it might relate to the pay actually. Because if you think about it, what we want is the right person for the right role, doing the right thing. And a really great engineer who gets tickets done, supports people and get the thing done might be worth way more than you're paying them. But we get a bit caught up in the right person for the right role, I think more because what happens is that we think we want to promote an engineer into the management role because they're a good engineer.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: And so when you talk about that, we are looking at salary, promoting into it. It's, is that person ever going to be the right person? They might be because they might have a real desire not to be an engineer, but to be a manager. But the skills for being a manager are quite different from being an engineer. And so the money is about what does that person bring to that role for the business. Obviously, especially in many organizations, the normal thing would be that the higher up that you go, the more money you get. But actual fact, really, we should be looking at what's the value to the business because the person that we might, the reason why people get promoted into the wrong roles is because there's no other line to get more money.

IAN: That was where I was going with because I remember back in the day when I was working with what is now Virgin Media, there were engineers there who were getting paid ridiculous amount of money, but they were fiber planners and they were the most highest graded technical engineer. They were never going to be managers, leaders and directors. They were great. And I think that was what I was trying to get out here is that, you say I only want to pay this much. What we hear, in our communities is that well, I only want to pay 55, 000 for example, but I want them to do this and I wanted to expel or, promote that in terms of what's the right way to look at it. And I think you've just said, you just got to get the right person for the right role at that time. And then they will then grow and develop into what molds into the business, won't they?

JULIE: Yeah, absolutely. And any organization, most organizations, but if you were an organization that didn't, they actually valued people for what they could do at that level, because that's what they're good at. And you stop people from wanting to do something just because they needed more money. And everybody needs more money. So if your mortgages and all those things, you've got to get into these roles and you might hate it. But that might be why we're getting people applying for these jobs that nobody, we don't really want them into because actually it's not to say that any engineer can't be, by the way, but what we're saying is somebody who's doing it because they want to progress because they want to get more money because that's what they need for their life. Yeah, they're going to be interested in these roles, even if they're not emotionally interested, they're financially interested. So we get more people. If we're not careful, we're going to encourage more people to apply for them because we've set them up in that way as well. Yeah, that might be why they're getting people.

IAN: Absolutely. And then, and what we're going to talk about part of today's show is how we measure those behaviors, isn't it? So where's the first part that every MSP can have a look at to prevent this from happening in their business.

JULIE: I think the first thing you need to do is understand what is the behavioral competencies that you really want in this person, because that then stems for the rest of it, because what's happening is there's two things that were two places where that's going to show. And that is in your advert and in your interview. Okay, because number one, you're attracting people with your advert. So if you're not clear on your behaviors that you want, the style of person, the person that you need, who, what are they going to be good at? Are they going to be able to display these behaviors? If you don't put that in the advert for a start you're going to get the wrong person. And if you're not absolutely 100% clear about it, then you're going to get all the other people who think, oh, that sounds wonderful because it's very bland. They'll apply number one, you've got to get the behaviours right. The second part, once you've got people in the interview, is you need those behaviours in there as well because once they're here and you're talking to them, you need to test. Whether they actually have that experience and those behavioural competences or did they just put them on their application form and pretending or hoping that they're going to get through it. So behavioural competences are really important. And so what was happening with the wonderful guys that I was speaking to, they were perhaps not as honest with themselves about what they wanted. And so you need to be really honest about what's the dynamic that you're looking for. What's the behaviors that you actually want and to be able to articulate them and to be able to say here's an example of what I mean by that. So if you're looking for somebody who's going to be open to change, for example, you want someone who can give you an example of when they've had to make a change or they've done something differently. Sounds obvious. But what people aren't asking that question and when, or, and when, what they're asking when, or if they do ask it what they are scoring, Ian, is, oh, that was a nice answer. Or that was like, oh, that sounds good enough. But they weren't actually looking at their scoring criteria to say. What does good look like to us? Okay. One of the lovely guys was like, we're not being specific. So I'm just listening to what they say and thinking, yeah that sounds reasonable, but not asking, does that actually do what we want it to do? How does it score on the actual, what does good look like? I know in you've done, you've been in corporate before, but like we are, let's say we were A to E, and A is I'm amazing, I've done it before, I've even implemented this whole change. And E is I've never heard of what you're talking about. To be able to define that so that person can actually answer and you can work out whether or not they really can do that behavior, not just that technical capability of that job.

IAN: And it's around drilling them out and scoring it, isn't it? Bill? Drilling the questions out and scoring it because at the end of the day, I like you have probably done many interviews where technically you've had a person who is just going to go into that role and they are going to annihilate it. They're going to high perform. They're going to be absolutely brilliant, but their behaviors. It could be, if they're in a customer facing all their presentation or whatever it might be, let's them down. And then when you actually look at the whole scoring, we used to do it on a number basis, and then you give someone a score of 30 or 40 or whatever it might be. And then when you sit down with all the candidates, you can then score them, look at the whole number because when you break it all down, and we actually used to do the interview questions by company value, which was always quite interesting to see. But it's getting those examples of, give me a time when you've done this and what did it, and then if you, and then if you think you can smell a rat, you just keep digging, don't you? You go what happened next then? And how did that make them feel?

JULIE: You are looking for somebody who can show they understood the question you are. Then the next level is that they have experience of it. The next level will be that they have actually been part of it. And the next level is, oh yeah, I actually introduced it, or I developed it, or I, dealt with an issue where I had to be the lead on that. And you might find that, I don't know, for one role, you might say, oh no, we only need a

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: On my scale, or we need a C on my scale, but for another role, you might say, no, that's really important. We need an A and so the answer we're looking for is different. But this is how you actually really understand who's right and wrong for the role, because otherwise you just go, oh, I'm not nice. And also you can't like really determined between different candidates because everybody just looks a bit like, okay. Where is this going to help you?

IAN: Talk to me about how we can use DISC to assist this. Some people, we hear them say, oh, I just need a, I just need someone who's a D who's going to go and get this done, or I need someone who's a C who's going to do this sort of thing. And remember when you were talking, you were unpicking this with some of our clients going is that actually what you really want? Is that the type of person because some people can be quite transaction in the fact of I need someone who's got a bit of this and a bit of that. And if they've got a bit of that, like a D and a C, for example, then they're going to be a great fit for the role. But that's not necessarily the case, is it?

JULIE: No. So, number one, you can't just recruit on a I want a D profile. They're in, even though if you're a D, you probably want to recruit on a D profile. Firstly, because that's not fair anyway. Yeah. That's an indicator of behavioral preferences doesn't mean you can do things. But also if you have two Ds in a room, okay and D being like a outgoing, fast paced, task focused person, they are going to want to get it done, get things, move things, do stuff, yeah, and make decisions really quickly. The problem is they may trample on a few people to get there if they're not careful. But the one thing they will want is probably, if they're not thinking about it they want another D. I want you all to be like me.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: And so we are in danger of saying, I want a D. So when we look at, when we're interviewing people, what we feel like we like, as the ones that show up as a D, and what we don't like is, oh, I don't like somebody who's like this, oh, I don't like it, because they're not like me. So we really have to choose when we're looking at behavioral competencies. Specifically, what are we looking for? Give me some examples of the type of things we need. Openness to change. What do you mean? I want them to take the department to, the next level and make it twice the size. And if you're really clear about it, rather than just saying, oh, I want a D, Then you're going to get somebody with some dynamism if they, if you're asking for change in your interview you're asking for change in your advert, then those people who don't like change aren't going to apply. So you're attracting people who, for example, like change, but you're not being specific and saying, oh, I just want a D. Yeah, because we get confused. We're not confused, but we get oh, I want somebody like over here. It's too simplistic. What we really want is the ability to do the things that we want to do in the role. What are our KPIs for the role? What are our things we're trying to achieve with this role? Oh, yeah, we want to reduce our wait times by 50% or, do make the processes different or do the thing, whatever the thing is, that's what we want in our behaviors. What are the behaviors that are going to display here?

IAN: So we've got right person in the right role and then we've got an existing team. So if we went and rubbed everything out and we started again, and we said I'm going to build the most perfect MSP. And this is what my SDM is going to look like. And this is what my level one, twos and threes are going to look like. And everything's all fantastic, but we're not in that position because we've got an existing team now. How do we decide whether a certain profile of person is that right role or whether it's the right role that's going to fit into our existing team? Because there's kind of arguments for both scales. Number one, I want a cookie cutter. I want an engineer who's going to be really solid, close everything off, be great with customers, blah, blah, blah. But I actually know that I've got quite an interesting team and they might not get on with this person and where they're not, might not get on with that person. And those people might leave anyway. So where how far does that, how far do you apply a tolerance of what you want for that role in terms of the ideal disc profile as to how it would, how that person needs to fit in with the existing team and company?

JULIE: That's the million dollar question. It isn't it?

IAN: That's what I thought I'd ask you because I thought you would know. I'll keep talking now until you put your, but it's a point, right?

JULIE: Yeah no, it's a really good point. When you've got a team, let's say you've got a team that are all, sorry, apologies if you're listening to this because we're now going to assume that you know what DISC is.

IAN: There's other podcasts we've done on DISC if you don't know.

JULIE: So if you had a bunch of SC blends, which is going to be so the more considered, more calm, quiet, precise people, not shouting out, across the world, let's say, you might think that you want somebody like that. So they fit in. But equally, that doesn't mean that somebody else wouldn't fit in, because actually what the team might need is an injection of some more dynamism. They might not like the dynamism, because again, for the same reason why your Ds want a D, is that we all want to have comfort zone, yeah? But actually, what do we want to do? What is a blend of a good team? And that is a bit of everything. And Initially, they, that can be tricky.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay? Because Bob walks in the room, who talks far too much according to everybody else in the room, who gives all his ideas, and everybody's oh god, he's talking again, or whatever. And they don't, people don't like it, because they're like, oh, who does he think he is? Or whatever they think. Yeah. However. Because we are in, like the old frogs in the boiling pot thing where the water gets hotter and hotter because you're comfortable in this thing and it just gets when you don't realize how bad everything is and you don't realize that if there's all people that are the same, then we only have one perspective. So when this Bob walks into this room, he's a different profile and he's technically capable. You initially think don't like that because now you're suddenly in hot water of having to deal with things differently. You've got people that don't do things the way you thought they did and now it hurts and you don't like it. So you might think oh, we don't bring anybody like that in. However, every team probably needs that because what you also didn't realize was that you don't make decisions very often. You're quite happy just being in the status quo. So you don't drive the department forward. You don't change processes. You don't make things better because you're too busy just doing the same old thing all the time. Yeah, so Bob actually is required because Bob's now going to say, hang on a second. Why are we only second best in the thing? Whatever it might be and then puts in an injection of like maybe we should change something here yeah, which is exactly what the business needs but might not be what the people Wanted because they were in their comfort zone. So in answer to your question, I think that the really what we should do is we should make sure that everybody is aware of different behavioral styles. So if you have a business and you have a team to throw everybody who's different in to the pot and hope that they don't argue. He's a bit naive, let's say, and what you really need to do is to allow people to have conversations about difference. And this isn't just for DISC profiles, by the way, this is about all of diversity, let's say. Yeah, the more we have that conversation, sit down and go, look, actually, All of these profiles are useful in different ways. You might not like the way Bob says something, but Bob's got some stuff to say. Then we need to change the way we communicate with Bob or Bob with you. And how do we all work together? So giving them actually the ability to have a language with which to converse with and then getting them to talk about it and accepting each other and utilising each other's strengths might be the best way to go. Does that make sense?

IAN: Making sure that the team, have team awareness, team self awareness so that they understand if people are like this and people are like that, rather than trying to recruit around, oh, we need somebody who's a bit more, we need a bit more dynamism in this role so that we can move things. We might be a project world or something like that. So how does the MSP decide what kind of behaviors they need for each job then?

JULIE: I think that's a little bit of have a proper conversation and ask yourself, what does good look like? Really, what does good look like? Go to your, I know that you teach, which I would agree with, which is here's my vision, here's my mission, this is what I'm doing. And then we're going to break that down by department. Because if that's the vision, what does the service desk team do to make that boat go faster? What does the finance team do to make the boat go faster? And whatever they, you can write in that box of what they do, what do you want to do more of? Is the thing that you want to put on your KPIs, let's say, yeah, and your job descriptions. And so when you're saying what do you want to do behaviorally? What does it take to get them there? So if you want, I don't know, 50% more sales or 50% more getting off, getting 50% more people off of the waiting list, whatever you call it. You want somebody who's going to drive that?

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah, somebody or something. You might say no, you want somebody with a blend of drive, but the ability to encourage people or somebody comes up with new ideas or who's going to challenge the status quo. But you don't want somebody who's comfortable just sitting there doing the same old thing every day.

IAN: And that was one of the things that we do in the vision or the values training is pick an employee who if you could clone, you'd get world domination. And look at their values and what is it that they do that makes you think, God, if everyone was like that person, they're conscientious, they drive things forward. They tell us when we've got a problem there, all these other bits and pieces.

JULIE: So that works. So it links up with that. And so the clearer you are with that stuff, when you go out to put your advert out, you attract. that person because you can articulate what it is you're looking for not just oh, we want somebody with good technical skills or good, follow our company values that are really bland. You're asking for specific things. You want somebody who's going to help us take our, to grow our company. We're going to help us who's got dynamism and who's going to change something or you might say somebody who can really make sure that we've got processes right or whatever it might be, whatever your need is, let's say but being more specific about that, about behaviorally, what you're looking for will encourage those that fit that profile to apply and those that they go, Oh, my God, that sounds awful, are not going to apply. So at least the pot that you've got for interview is a good start. And then if you make sure you ask those questions in the interview and measure against to. what good actually looks like, then you can hear their answers and go, that does answer the question as per what we're looking for.

IAN: You can score it and then get the right people in the right roles at the right time. Exactly. Julie, absolutely great show. There were loads of little insights. They're really getting into the details specifically in recruiting the right people for the right role. What's the key takeaways today that people need to not forget.

JULIE: So I think is take your time and sit down and ask yourself, what do I really want behaviorally from that, which will link to your vision and mission and all of those things in the culture of the organization. The longer you spend doing that, the better. And then use that in how you articulate your advert and get yourself a piece of paper, draw some boxes on it that say A, B, C, D, E, hopefully no E's, down the side, with the competencies along the top, the other way around. And when you're interviewing people, ask them to give you an example of when. Tell me a time of when and listen to what they say and ask yourself, do they show they understand it? Do they show they've used it? Do they show they know how to take it forward? And then score them accordingly.

IAN: Fantastic. And it is quite simply. As simple as that, isn't it?

JULIE: It is as simple as that.

IAN: Great stuff. Thank you Julie. Thanks for a great show. I look forward to catching up with you on the next one. Take care.

JULIE: Bye-bye.

IAN: Oh, but one last thing just before you shoot off, and if you're curious about how this episode links with the ability to scale your MSP to a million or, or if you are already there, accelerate to five, then we want to invite you to come and take the MFP Mastery quiz. And in just three minutes, you're going to get a 360 degree scan of your business where you can identify the one or two tactics that can help you find more time engaging along your people and help generate more leads in your MSP. It's really simple. Just click on the link in the show notes. And if you have enjoyed this episode, we'd love to get some feedback from you by means of a rating review on Spotify your podcast platform of choice. We really appreciate every single one of them. Now you can go and enjoy the rest of your day and we look forward to catching up and connecting with you soon. All the best.