EP269 - How to Supercharge Your MSP by Growing Future Leaders with Julie Hutchison and Ian Luckett

IAN: In this episode of The IT Experts Podcast, we hope we work out how to supercharge your MSP by growing your future leaders.

INTRO: Welcome to The IT Experts Podcast, the only podcast to help MSPs scale to 1 million, and if already there, get to five and go faster. At the end of the day, isn't it all about building a business that works for you rather than you for it? I hope you enjoy the show.

IAN: So good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to The IT Experts Podcast, and welcome back into the podcast lounge, our incredible leadership coach Julie Hutchinson. How you doing today? Julie?

JULIE: Hello. I'm very well, thank you. Hello everybody.

IAN: Good stuff. We've managed to recover you from a dreadful illness while we've been trying to plan this amazing episode. And the reason for today's show is that we've recently, recently, our last, last podcast we did was episode 223, where we're talking about how to find your future leaders. And in today's show we're going to share with you what to do when you've identified these key members of your team. And the main reason for the show actually is because you've been doing some amazing work in the Growth Hub, Julie, with I think nearly 30, maybe just over 30 of our clients' future leaders, which is super incredible. So we want to hear about that and what's been going on there. But that's been kind of provoked this episode to say, well, hang on, this is a really important thing that if you want to get out of your MSP and if you want to, you know, really lift your MSP up and drive some great performance, you're not going to do it on your own. You need a great team below you. Now it's very interesting to say – yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, we know, but how do we actually do it? So that's what we're going to cover off today. So Julie, just tell us a little bit, what have you been up to in the Growth Hub over the last couple of months?

JULIE: Yeah, no problem. So, I actually want to give it some context because we are always talking about how you know, the business owner needs to be the leader in their business. And we've talked previously about you know, Michael Gerber's, e-myth and whether we are the technician, whether we are the manager or the entrepreneur in our business, and we're always telling business owners, oh, you need to be the leader. But actually that's absolutely true. And we have our team performance playbook within the MSP Growth Hub. But what we realise though is that as your business grows, yes, you need to be the leader, but you also need other people to be leaders in the business. And that's why we previously have talked about how do you find future leaders because if you don't have those, then you end up with you as the leader and everybody else is just the team, let's say. And then that gets really wobbly and then it's like a big elastic band going a bit baggy after a while that the communication gets bad. So you really need people in there that are going to be, stepping up to drive the business, as we've spoken about before. And so what we've been doing within the Growth Hub is we've now had two cohorts. So we're just sort of midway through our second cohort

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: Of pulling people out of your business and helping them to grow and to see what it means to be a leader, and then the skills and the approach to be the best leader they can be within the business. So they follow your leadership style, hopefully not yours Ian, but business owner's leadership style.

IAN: Nothing wrong with that. Thank you very much.

JULIE: You have a wonderful leadership style. Yeah, but, but whatever the style is, you know, that hopefully they are different from the business owner, but a mini me of the business owner, let's say, and they can help that business owner to grow the business in the way that they want, and then the communication gets better. And the performance is better because there is that link between the bigger team and the owner of the business. And so what we've been doing is we've breaking down the skills and the tools that we need to be able to do that, because what we are realising is just like the business owner who probably was that technical expert at one point and has grown up and has started to think like a leader just like that, these people that we are selecting have shown that promise. We've identified them like we talked about in a previous one. We've identified them as somebody who can step up, but they need the support to be able to do that. And. What we've recognised is, and that's why we do what we do, is that it's more than just sending somebody on a course.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: And Ian, what I have a lot of conversations with people who said, well, I don't know whether to put them on your future leaders program because they've already been on Nan and then label X course Y course I won't name any of them. But they haven't changed or I don't see any different, or they're not really confident. And what we recognised is, and it's really the basis of everything that I do is, is that, it's no good teaching somebody something if they don't practically use it and they don't implement and they don't have a place to have a conversation about it as well. So the program that we designed is around giving them the tools and the skills and the place to go ahead and have good conversations and to be able to play with it and learn in small steps. And so that's what we've been doing and we've had a right laugh, I have to say.

IAN: Yes, you certainly have. I've been watching.

JULIE: I think you're might scared of me. But that the reason is, is because we want to make a safe space. And this is one of the things that we realise is that when people grow in your business, you need to give them a safe place to grow. Because at this precise moment, they may be amazing at what they do, but you are asking something very different of them and they've got to align to you, they've got to align to what you want to achieve, and they've got to be able to go to have, go ahead and have really good conversations with people. They've got to tackle difficult conversations. They've got to tackle performance. They've got to link your vision with what these people are doing, and hopefully the frameworks are in place for them to do that. But what we are doing is we're helping them to make sure that. If those frameworks are in place, and that as a business owner, you've done the thing you need to do, but they are the go-between. So they can start to put it into place and say to, to you actually, you know, we haven't done this, or we need to do this, but then they can help you to do it as well. So we are trying to create these people that are very much the link between what you want and what's actually happening in your business. And...

IAN: That was really, it was really interesting, wasn't it, at the beginning because. Many MSPs, they can, you know, they, they see people that come up and they sort of think just because they've been there as a long time as a technician, they're going to make a great leader. That's not necessarily the case. So they put them on a course and then they don't follow up with them. And I think that's one of the critical things isn't it? Is why do people just do that, Julie? Why do they just thought, well, do you know what I'm going to fix you, put you on a course, see what happens. And the end outcome is generally, doesn't work.

JULIE: Because courses and I think, and I've been on it myself, you know, you go on a course, you go away for two weeks or a week even, you know, and you're stuck in this intensive thing and it's all there. You've got all this information, but what you don't have is implementation.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: But information also in a in those sort of environments are actually quite overwhelming. And also feel a little bit like not real in that like, oh, I understand about whatever the theory is, you know, oh, let's pick one. I know Maslow's Hierarchy of needs, for example. Oh yeah, I learn, I know that, but I'm not implementing it. I'm not actually having a conversation about it. And what also happens is when you, when it's very easy, but when you put somebody on a course, you know, you forget they've gone almost, you know, like, oh, there, they're on their course, they're doing their thing and what we have realised, and the difference between what we are doing and what some courses are doing is saying, no, we need to integrate this with the owner of the business and the senior leadership team or whoever it is in the business that are responsible for helping this person implement and integrate into the business as a leader because like we can, originally what we started to do was to teach your staff and go and tell you to implement it and all these things, but actually what we were recognising is that some of the business owners were like what are they learning? I said, have you not had a conversation with them?

IAN: Yeah, yeah.

JULIE: Have you not actually spoke to them about it? Because what the, in the mindset of the business owner, it's like, oh, that's in the it's now in the easier part of like, well, they're Julie's teaching them something but the problem with that is that unless you have a conversation with your new leader about what does that mean to you, what does it mean to me? How are you going to implement that in the business and me be like, okay with that, or not okay with that. Unless you do that, they're never going to implement anything here because they're either not going to, they're not, you just put remove CR on there. That's just... I

IAN: did, did you? Oh, can you see that? Sorry.

JULIE: Funny.

IAN: I didn't know you could, I didn't know you could see.

JULIE: Sorry.

IAN: Right.

JULIE: I forgot what.

IAN: I know. You could see that.

Right. We start, here we go. Oh, that come up with anything? You were talking, I was just waiting because I was waiting for you to kind of like cough again, but uh Right. Okay.

JULIE: So I know what I was saying. Yeah. So unless you take the responsibility as a business owner for what they are learning, even though they go on a course, if you don't take responsibility and say, how are we going to implement this? How am I going to coach you to implement this? And take some form of interest and responsibility, then what will happen is they will literally just go on a course and they may try some stuff, but they won't, probably won't have the confidence. And they also won't have the direction. It's like a, it's like winding that old good old Duracell bunny up and stick it in the wrong direction. It's like they're going to, they could do some damage there, you know be off in the wrong direction. And so we need to have these better conversations with our team to make sure it works. And that's what's really important is to, is for every single area of work that, that we are teaching them, you have that conversation with them about what is it that you're going to do about it? So there is that relevance for the leader as well. For the owner as well.

IAN: So we have a, you know, so you've got a good leader, you've got someone who, who's kind of like stepping up and whether you've put them on a course or not, or whether you've put them, they've got any training or not. What should the owner of the MSP be doing to help lift, you know, lift those individuals up on a weekly basis? What does that kind of connection cadence look like?

JULIE: Well, for me, I think that the biggest thing is that as the business owner, you need to make sure that you have a very, very clear vision. And we bleak on about this all the time, but you need to have a very clear vision and mission, but you also need to have a very clear conversation with that person about...

IAN: Okay.

JULIE: What does that mean for your department? For example, if you know, if they're, I don't know, office, desk or whatever, what does it mean for your department? What does that look like? Pulling that down with them, working with them on this is the vision and mission for your department, and this is what the KPIs look like. And help them to have a framework with which to work with their team, and once they've got a framework, they can be more confident about applying the tools. And quite often what we see is that maybe they've got a vision and mission for the business, but they don't break it down. And we teach that throughout the whole of the Growth Hub is, bringing down the scale operate procedure is bringing it down into, well, what does it look like on a daily basis?

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: And you have to be involved in that at the start later on when, when you know your future leader is the leader, and in that department, you don't necessarily need it, but at the beginning you need to give them that guidance. Because once they do that, they'll start learning these tools. They'll start learning how to communicate better. They'll start learning how to have one-to-ones and all those kind of things. Those great things. Unless you give them that guidance, then they're going to have no framework to do it. And we've seen that where people are learning the tools and they're like, oh, I just can't do it. And we discover that actually there's no KPIs, there's no, there's nothing there for them to, let's say.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: And that can be really tricky. So I think on a weekly, on an initial basis, you need to make sure you've got all that in the place.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: And then on a more regular basis is helping them with what's going on with the team and guiding them in terms of having the confidence to tackle difficult people to tackle difficult issues. Whether that be performance issues or change in the department is giving them the green light to go ahead and do stuff and the support so that if they make a mistake that you're not going to be like, oh, you know, take it all back and start micromanaging them again because they need the confidence and capability to do it, but they won't have that unless you allow them to make the mistake.

IAN: And this is really tactically getting them now, as you say, connected to the, the kind of the purpose of the business. And yes, you've got your departments, but this is now going that step further to make sure that you are now getting that you know, there's personal targets and the personal connection with that leader, you know, who's rowing that boat, driving the car. You know, you have a great analogy. Share with us the driving, the car analogy of where people need to be sitting on the bus. Where does the future leaders sit in the car analogy? I love this.

JULIE: Yeah. I mean, we've probably talked about it before, but I'll tell you, you know, if you think about that. Now you are going on your, where did we go Normally, we normally go to Scotland because I can never think of anywhere else. If you are all in a car and you're going to Scotland and you are, you are the driver of the car at the moment, okay? And that's your business. And you've got a team of people in your business and they're going to get in that car somewhere. And if you think about your future leaders and your current leaders, you need them to be able to drive the car. Okay. If you can't drive the car or when you want, or their department, but if they're not a driver in your business. They at very least have to be a front seat passenger. Okay? And I would say they're probably going to be a front seat passenger at the start. And that means that although they're not driving the business, they've got the route map. They know where they're going, they can tell you the direction, they can tell you if you've gone off track. And they are having good conversations with you, that are making sure, that you are a team working together to get to where you want to get. Then you've got the old backseat passengers, which is the people that sit there and complain a bit, tell you going in an all direction, but don't do anything about it. You know, the ones that's normally mother-in-law or something like that, isn't it? Sitting in the back.

IAN: Listen to the show. So, yes.

JULIE: Yeah. They're sat in the back and they're not really giving enough to make a difference and they're not willing to put their name to anything and they're not willing to step up and, you know, and try and put their neck on the line, but they like having a little moan about what they don't like about the business, you know, and you get a lot of team members that can be like that sort of thing. And we probably talked about that when we were talking about how to choose your future leaders, because you don't really want one of those as a future leader unless they can grow a little bit. Yeah, and then there's an even worse case. You've got your baggage in the back. Yeah, and they're just like weighing you down in your business. And we all got those people. And so we don't want that. And so, you know, when we are looking at this, who do we need these people to be? We need them to be front seat passenger, but I am going to say that the front seat passenger will get in the back if you don't behave the way you need to behave as a business owner.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. Because if I'm a growing leader and I want to try new stuff, I want to have a go at all this new stuff that I've been taught, then. If I do it and you smack me down or you tell me, no, not like that, or No, I do it like this, you must do it like this. That's not the way or you micromanage them as a leader and you don't give them that ability to, to have a go and try and you step back. Then of course that's like whipping the map out of their hands when you're trying to drive, and that's like going the wrong way when they're saying, oh no, I think it's this way, and you're like no, I know the way and so, if you could imagine how annoying that would be.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: Especially, you know, you like your cars, Ian and I don't suppose you'd be very good in it, in that passenger seat if you didn't.

IAN: I'm not at all.

JULIE: No. And there'd be a few arguments, but if, you know, imagine yourself in that leadership place. If you keep putting down that person in the passenger seat, then they're going to stop making decisions, trying. Yeah, so they're just going to step back. So you, as a leader in your own business, need to make sure that when you pick these people, you have a good relationship with them, and you grow that relationship that you coach them, and you don't just micromanage them out of any desire to be a leader. And that happens a lot because we are scared, you know? And we're like, oh, I don't want them to make a good decision or not a good decision, make any decision.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: Because I'm too scared and think they're going to make the wrong decision. But I've seen that all on a weekly basis, and I won't say who, but if you're listeners to this, you know who you are.

IAN: So under, under mask...

JULIE: People who are our supposed future leaders or even leaders in the business are literally like throwing their teddy at the PR because they're like, why should I bother with this? Why should I try? Why am I making decisions when I'm getting overruled? And that's what I mean by this, that people in the passenger seat who want to get in the driver's seat will end up in the back seat.

STUART INTERRUPT: If scaling your MSP is your goal, but you're not sure which road to take, then you'll really want to get hold of the MSP growth guide. It's the shortcut most MSPs wish they had much earlier on to work out what the right support is for them. Even better, if you like meeting up in person, why not come to join us at one of our live events? See the system, meet the people, get inspired, get to kick the tires and see exactly what we get up to at the Growth Hub. So details are on the show notes below. Go have a look, click and come and join us and we look forward to seeing you another time, but let's get back to the show.

IAN: Thanks, Stuart.

Let's talk about roles. Now, you've got an MD business owner, and then you've got your leader coming up and you've just, you explained beautifully about how you need to start to adjust and little things like that. How does the MSP owner go through this kind of bit of a transition on, you know, my role is going to change. So I guess what we're talking about here is you're going to swap seats in the car, right? I'm going to sit in the passenger. You are going to sit in the driving seat.

JULIE: Okay.

IAN: But how does the MSP owner not just keep leaning over and grabbing the wheel and stamping the foot on the brake? And because you've just said that the leader's going to be coached and trained in confidence to take on the new skills and they are going to have to make a few mistakes. But also it's, this is kind of letting go of the vine a little bit, isn't it? What does the MSP need to do to change his role in that way and his mindset, I'm guessing.

JULIE: And number one and I don't normally use functional stuff, but number one is for me, is make sure that you've got your roles, responsibilities, and your KPIs and your, and all of your measures in place. The reason I say that, because if you've got all that in place, you can breathe a little bit because at least there's somewhere to something to run...

IAN: guidance. Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah. Because the minute you, well, when you don't have that, when you, it's so hard not to micromanage. Okay? So in your mindset, no wonder you have probably the right mindset in a way because you know how risky it's going to be for that person to make a decision based on nothing basically. So if every time you make a decision in your business, you are having to reinvent the wheel, then giving somebody else that decision is a dangerous thing.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. So your mindset is probably a correct mindset in the short term of that is not going to work. So you are never going to give, you know, give the reins over there. You're never going to let them get into the driver's seat. So the first thing I think is you need to make sure is that you do have everything in place there like that, because that means that any decision, it has a guardrail. But as for your mindset, the question has to be, in my mind anyway, is what does good actually look like?

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: Not what does my good look like? What did not, how do I like to do things? Not what is my preferred MO for my, you know, my communication style or my way of doing, or my way of working. Because you've, as a business owner, adapted yourself to succeed in business. It doesn't mean that your way of doing things is the best way. You've just found a way to make it happen.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. And we have to accept that of ourselves, that our way is not the best way necessarily. Okay, if we can do that, and then we can say, okay, the outcome that I am looking for is X, Y, and Z. Might be that the service desk, you know, has, calls answered. 90% of calls answered within about three seconds or whatever the thing is.

IAN: Yeah. Yeah.

JULIE: If the outcome is really, really clear, then the way that person gets to it is their way. It's up to them. And so the mindset we need is that it's outcome based, not methodology.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: I think or process based, if you have a process, a guiding process, let's say, but the way that person does what they do has to be for them. Otherwise, they're, never going to be able to be confident in doing the thing they do. And your confidence will come with the definition of the outcomes and KPIs, in my opinion. Okay. And obviously we like it done our way, don't we?

IAN: Yeah, yeah.

JULIE: Everybody does. You know, we like it done our way, but we've got to get over ourselves on that one. Because let's just think about it. Let's just imagine your business, you know, grows to, I know 500 people. Then you're just going to go around checking everybody's doing it your way all the time, so you're going to be just as busy.

IAN: You'll be worn out.

JULIE: You're going to be absolutely worn out. So it isn't even possible after a certain point. So why not just accept that it isn't, if it's not possible later on in big organisations, then it's not necessary in yours. What's necessary is the outcome.

IAN: Julie. That's great. What are some of the areas that and topics that you've had the most impact on with the future leaders that we've been working on? Obviously there's loads of training courses that you can go on in YouTube or Udemy or whatever it might be, but you know, which are the ones that you've seen that the big topics that's had that impact?

JULIE: Yeah. The biggest one, I think the biggest, most important one and the one that maybe people don't even think about until they do it, which is who do I need to be and how do I need to show up?

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: So I call it the being, not the doing. Yeah, because we all can sit there and say, what does a leader do? Oh, I do this, I do this. Functionally. That's what I do. But actually it's how do I show up? And then, and the second one is, how do I talk to people? How do I have a conversation? So the first one is, you know, what does it mean to be a leader? What level should I be thinking at? How should I be showing up and the impact of me in the, in the business. But the second one, how do I actually talk to people is because, you know, when we have conversations, whether they be our one-to-one or our group or all those things, we've got to be able to understand what's going on for people because otherwise they either, as we've said before, they can't, won't, or don't do what we want them to do. So we need to understand what's behind that, to know what, for want of a better word, and press the right button to help that person to want to be in the room with us. And so communication, how do we deal with conflict or whether it be full on conflict, but how do we deal with difficult conversations, things that need to be said that I don't really want to say because they're awkward. That's what thing is actually super, super important. But it's also important to do it practically to give people the opportunity to go and practice those things. And that's where, like I said before, we've got to get our leaders in there involved in that. Because we need to be able to have a go at having better conversations with people. So that's important.

IAN: What are some of the, what are some of the best conversations that you've had where you've seen a big change in some of the leaders once you be, because it's already been good, go and doing a syllabus and go and doing a training. But the, you know, the special part is where you can then come back and use it as a springboard and a test bed to sort of say, Hey Julie, I did this last week, but this didn't kind of work out quite well. How do I, how should I have approached it or what did I do wrong? Because I remember when the first cohort came in, they were like rabbit in the headlights, weren't they? And a couple of weeks ago, we literally had them in the boardroom here, which was incredible. So what, share with us some of the really greatest wins without mentioning any names, obviously.

JULIE: I don't know if there's a specific one you are thinking of. I'm, I haven't even thought of yet, but one that I loved the other day, and I won't name who it was, but it was lovely because a lady was saying know, actually, I'm going to use the word Bob now.

IAN: Yeah. Bob.

JULIE: Bob is really annoying. And we don't have a relationship at all, and he just gets on the nerve. And we were doing our, understanding people module and our disc module, which was looking at behavioural profiles and that sort of thing, and really getting to understand like what's going on in people's heads.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: And suddenly she was like, oh, he's actually really like me and was able to just suddenly stop, for what of a better word, hating Bob. She did hate him but stop getting annoyed with him and stop thinking, oh, why does he do that? And start looking at it from his perspective.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: And suddenly was like, oh, hold on a minute. I just need to change the way I'm showing up here. I need to change...

IAN: Yeah. Yeah.

JULIE: My approach. And when she did that, she was what I call walking alongside him.

IAN: Yeah. Yeah.

JULIE: And therefore, they were collaborating rather than, you know, conflicting. And that's what we are trying to do. We're trying to get people to have the confidence to stand next to people rather than hide from them or, you know, whether we attack people or whether, you know, whether we feel like we're in conflict with them or we just run away from them is actually have the right conversation that you need to have and say the things that need to be said. And so that's probably one of my favorites because she was real like, oh, I'm never going to be able to work with them. I'm never going to be able to do that. You know, and I think that's such a lovely, a lovely change.

IAN: It reminds me of it is either a Jim Rohn or a Zig Ziglar comment which says, which was going I'm absolutely overwhelmed how everybody's changed. Now I've, since I've been doing this personal development stuff.

JULIE: Yeah.

IAN: Love it. Absolutely love that quote.

JULIE: That's a brilliant quote because when we are in a leadership position. And this is applies to you as business owners as well, is that we complain about other people's behaviour. Well, Bob doesn't do this or she doesn't do that, and Oh, they're not performing very well.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: And we can't change other people's behaviour. No, the only thing we can change is our behaviour.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: Weirdly enough, Ian, when we change our behaviour, other people's behaviour changes.

IAN: Amazing isn't it?

JULIE: Surprise. So what, and I think it's really important that, so what we are doing is helping people on our leadership program to understand their behaviour, their impact.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: And to have the skills and the tools to then make adaptations design our own impact. And lo and behold, we get people that actually want to be in the room with us. Who want to do the work with us and who feel confident and capable to do that work, and therefore we get performance.

IAN: Brilliant. Thanks Julie, again, for your wonderful insights into the wonderful world of MSP leadership. What's your summary takeaways? What are people we need to do and big things to take away from this episode?

JULIE: Well, I think obviously finding those people that you want to find, make sure that you're looking for at very least your front seat passengers. And then looking at your role within this is, that is a supporting role. It is not an abdication role of like off, off you go type thing. It's about supporting them and helping them to implement in your business because you will reap the rewards. So that means making sure that whatever they're doing and however they're growing, you are helping them to implement, but also that you and your mindset and your impact is such that they have not free reign, but they have some reign to go ahead and start really pushing forward and doing things that need to be done. Because that is super, super important for them.

IAN: Good stuff. Love it. And you know, if you have future leaders, you are trying to find your future leaders and you can't find them or you don't know what to do with them, and you need a bit of a help and support, then either contact yourself or Julie LinkedIn website. Whichever way you want to find us is the easiest for you. But, in the meantime, thank you again, Julie, for your golden nuggets. Looking forward to catching up with you in the podcast lounge real soon. You enjoy the rest of your day and catch up with you all soon. Take care now.

JULIE: Take care everyone.

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