EP191 - The No 1 Reason Why MSPs Fail
with Tracy Pound and Ian Luckett

INTRO

In this episode of the IT Experts Podcast we share with you the number one reason why MSPs fail.

Welcome to the IT Experts Podcast, the only podcast to help MSPs scale to 1,000,000, and if already there get to five and go fast at the end of the day, isn't it all about building a business that works for you rather than you for it? I hope you enjoy the show.

IAN

So, good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to the IT Experts podcast. And today we're going to share with you the number one reason, a bit of a smashing, the guts to slap around the face... the number one reason why MSPs fail, that's in our opinion. And sharing with me this whole new concept is Tracy Pound for Maximity. Good morning, Tracy. How you doing today?

TRACY

Good Morning, Ian. I'm very well. Thank you and thank you very much for having me on your podcast. I'm very much looking forward to this chat.

IAN

No problem whatsoever. And thank you for your time in in helping us set up and everything. And this episode came from my thinking watching you deliver talk for CompTIA earlier on in the year and it was all around the S word, the dreaded S word – Strategy. God, how boring is that? How unbelievably boring is the word strategy? And but we're going to unpick that today. Because your talk was really inspiring and it really gave me some thought for to get something out on the podcast. So before we get into the nuts and bolts of it, do you want to let everybody know who are you, what do you do and who do you help?

TRACY

Okay, so I'm Tracy Pound. I'm the owner of a business called Maximity. We're based in Tamworth, Staffordshire. We've been going for 24 years this year and we specialize in helping companies take the SH out of their IT. So we work with end users. It's a great tagline, isn't it? And it's we really sums up what we do. So we do a lot of training on Microsoft.

IAN

I love that. I do love that.

TRACY

That we have put business systems in. So predominantly that's Microsoft's business central. We help with a bit of consulting. We do report writing, we do power BI dashboard design, a whole heap of stuff that's around using the data that's in your business to drive future growth and to see what's going on. So that you, you understand all the moving parts within your business and people understand. How to use their technology properly, there's so many people can't even use Excel.

IAN

I know is, isn't it frightening and I'm an Excel geek. And do you remember you, you will remember this. Do you have a Microsoft Access?

TRACY

Yes, I do. Yes, I used access.

IAN

How cool was that product? That's just like.

TRACY

I know, I know it. It was. It was. And I am.

IAN

Like a keyboard, you can you have to use.

TRACY

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I am very sad. You know, I am of an age where I've actually used every single version of Excel that has ever been bought out. Ever been bought out? So yeah, I remember access very well, relational databases and people trying to get their heads around that. So yes, technology has moved on quite a lot.

IAN

Yes, it has, and isn't that interesting because what we're going to be talking today about is, you know what you've just blasted us with there the MSPs listening to this will be going. Yes, love this ohh love a bit of that, ohh this automation, all these wonderful things that you're doing which is all for me, I love, I do love systems and processes, do love a little shiny ball, I do love a little bit of tech that I can have a play around with, but when it gets too when the conversation goes on for more than about 7 seconds I just kind of like zone out a little bit. Are we going to flick the other way around here, because obviously at the growth hub and what you're doing and come to and all of these other great communities that we're in, we're all here to help MSPs to build profitable businesses that work for them rather than for us, it's a great model. It's an incredible model, it's, you know, super, super appreciate being in this community. It's the highest growth tech space, you know, for the next 10 years. So how exciting is all of that stuff. But it’s bloody hard growing an MSP because most MSP business owners don't understand the fundaments and the fundaments around growing in MSP or growing anything flying a plane going on holiday baking a cake is about having a plan, isn't it? And that plan needs a strategy. Ohh boring, here we go. But it's not going to be boring. Cause we're not going to talk about that. So what you must see Tracy, and I know we're going to come on to this subject a little bit later on about solution selling and not selling the tech and selling the outcome which I've you've built your business on incredibly well. Why is it that MSPs have such a struggle to get their head around the working on the structures of the plan, the sales and marketing the team building, you know, in your view, what do you see? Why does this create this big brick wall?

TRACY

I think it's a number of things. I think first and foremost, a lot of MSP practices were started by people who are technically very, other so they've been in that tech track for a lot of their career. They've not worked in the finance department often they've not worked in a big organization or corporate organisation, so they've not seen all the structure of what it takes to run the big company, and their mindset is very much I need to serve the need to my customer, which is absolutely right. But alongside that you have to have a mindset of I need to serve my business. Because if I don't serve my business as well as I serve my customers, I'm not going to get a business that's going to grow. It's not going to have good, strong foundations that allow it to grow. So I think a lot of it is wound up in the fact that MSPs are predominantly run by people who are very technical, so they've not had that wider business expo variant.

But also, I don't think it's just MSPs. I think small businesses in general struggle with strategy because when they start and somebody says right, you need to write a business plan and you need to put all this down and writing they haven't got it fully formed. I mean I know when I started my business, I have no idea where it was going to go, what it was going to look like. You just have this idea in your head that you want to serve this kind of customer and you want to deliver this kind of service. And this is roughly what it looks like and off you go. And then suddenly you're running because you're successful and you're really that. And that strategy conversation is so far in the past that you don't even consider it. I don't think it's just confined to the IT industry. I think it's a problem of small business startups because when you start a business, your primary aim is you've got to earn money, you've got to go out there and you've got to get some business in. So that's what you do, and you don't necessarily have a focus on everything that you want to set up as your foundational infrastructure. You have an idea of what you want to do, who you want to serve and what that kind of looks like. And then you get successful and by the time you've got successful that idea of strategy is so far in the past that you don't even think about it, but it comes back and it bites you later on when you're trying to grow your business. If you don't have that foundational infrastructure.

IAN

So that's a really, really great point. Just picking up on something that you've just said there, you know you go to your NatWest accelerator or whatever it is or your bank and they say, do your business plan. So you write down the sort of this is what I wanna do and this is what I wanna achieve. Blah blah blah and all sort of thing. What's the difference then between the business plan and your view and the strategy.

TRACY

My strategy is something that lives a business plan, when the bank asks you to do. It serves the purpose of getting them to set your corporate bank account up and it gets you off the ground financially. But a strategy is something that lives with you. It's something that every person in your organization understands, buys into, is part of your culture. And that's what drives success and growth going forward. So it never stands still if the strategy stands still, it's not a strategy.

IAN

And your main objective as a business owner is to keep that strategy alive isn't it?

TRACY

Well it it is because you want your business to grow, you know everybody wants to be successful and you can be successful to a certain point without having strategy, but you will reach a ceiling. You know, I've seen it so many times across so many businesses in many, many industries that they reach a ceiling. Then they shrink down a little bit. They get back up to that steaming and they shrink down again. Before the penny drops that in order to get through that barrier, they've got to think and be somebody different and its strategy that drives that being different because it's always ahead of you. It's what you're looking towards. It's the future. So it drives who you become and how you act. And then that drives who you attract as your customers. So you know, if you don't have a strategy, you don't have a plan. If you don't have a plan at some point, most companies fail. And we know a lot of small businesses fail, so, you know, MSPs have got a huge opportunity out in the market to succeed. COVID the pandemic gave us a great leg up because as an industry we were really able to show businesses that were skeptical about tech that actually really works, and we could deliver, and we could let people work from home. And it took away so many barriers. And now businesses are starting to shrink back to how they looked before. So they're closing the door. So we've got an opportunity whilst those doors are still open to really push for growth and really push for the right technology relations. But to do it you need to have a strategy. Because if you don't, how are you ever going to get to your intended target market? How do your staff know what they're supposed to be doing for you? That's in line with your vision for the business and that's what it's supposed to be.

IAN

Exactly. So let's unpick it. Where do people start? Some people might think they've got a strategy. Some people might think they've got a bit of a plan. Some people think, yeah, I know where this this business is going. We were to create a blueprint on this podcast right now. What would that blueprint to a strategy look like?

TRACY

I think for me it starts with culture. It starts with, you know, what is, what is your culture, what is your ethos? What do you believe in? What's important to you? And that isn't, I'm the head of the organization and I'm going to do it on my own. That's, I'm the head of the organization in my will need it, but I'm taking all my staff. I'm taking my business on a journey with this. So what are their thoughts? What do they think? We're really good at? What do they think we stand for? And building that into not a vision statement. You know you've got vision statements, you've got vision statements. Everybody tells you need to have these things, unless they serve a purpose, why do you want to do it? But with culture, I think you want to have a culture that's written down so that when you recruit people, you're recruiting people that fit that match as personalities of what's important to them in in ethics and you want to embed that all through your organization so that everybody is thinking, acting, and being in the same way. And then that filters actually clients, because then your clients see these people really care. You know they're taking the time to learn about me. They pay attention to detail when we're trying to do these things. They get their invoicing right, so it filters out into the way that your customers respond to you. And feel about you and that starts with every single person in the organization. That is, culture is not something, that's a management thing, that is something that has to be embedded throughout the whole organization. And I think once you've got culture, then you starting to look at right, what do we do and why do we do it? So the why, you know, why did you set your business up? What was it intended to do? What's the story behind that? Because then you're bringing in something that's really personal to it. And in a world where everybody says, you know, we deliver a great service and we do this for you, how's the customer supposed to distinguish between company A and company B, that are both saying we're great at what we do so you've got to have something that really sets it apart, and often that's something personal.

IAN

Excellent. Loving this, that culture, I think is so important. Because isn't it funny through all this technology and the things that are on or off and the systems that work or they don't work or anything on that which we know it's the systems that create great businesses, but it's the behaviors that drive the innovation into the systems. I was listening to Steven Bartlett the other day at an event and he said I am a recruit and my job is recruitment and he said and the guy was into. And so I said, what you on about, he goes well, I've got a vision. What he wanted to achieve he says and now I need to go and find world class people who can then help me achieve that vision he says. And then what I need to do is inspire them so that they feel that they've got a sense of purpose to help me achieve the overall vision. And it was amazing. Because all of that was around exactly what you talked about, which was around behaviours and you can always teach technology or tech skills, but you can't teach behaviours and this is the bit where people go wrong with recruitment, isn't it? You know, you might have someone in his brilliant. He's going to come here, he's going to he or she's going to bash the keyboard all day long and everything's going to be absolutely fantastic. But they might not talk to anyone. They might not care about the customer and that's a real challenge, isn't it? The behaviours, how does an MSP or any business know whether where they've got that culture that's working? What does success or measurement of a culture look like?

TRACY

I think you, it’s to do with again several things, I think it's the internal feeling within the organization. So you know you can judge when you walk into an office, whether it's a friendly office or whether it's not. So you can get a feeling from how people act with each other often, it's that they'll do things outside of work together. And that you know that it forms almost like a community in its own right. And that's not to say every business has to have a community and people have to be part of that because I think that puts a lot of pressure on certain people who've got responsibilities outside of work. But in general, you find that people want to be together, they'll go for a drink after work or they'll go the lunch together or you know, you'll suddenly find that some of them are going out for a night, and that might be in small groups. But when you start to see that happening on its own, without it being forced and without it being mandated, then I think you know that you've got a really good internal culture and you'll get it back from your customers as well. So as an MSA, if you are good at account management, you should be out seeing your customers or talking to them on a regular basis, whatever that happens to be could be annually, it could be biannually, it could be monthly, but whatever that cadence is. You should be getting that feedback naturally from a lot of your clients. You won't get it from all of them because some people just don't like being that you know, a lot of your clients. They will notice. That they're getting extra special care from help desk people from admin people from receptionist who they're speaking to, and that is the way I think of really being able to tell you you've got a good culture that's embedded and changing culture. It's really hard, you know, it's not an easy thing. You can't say, right? I want a culture that is friendly and honest and this and that and the other and everybody go okay,yes, we'll do. Because what? Why should they? Where's the person buying it in for them? So you know, you've got to really understand people.

And when I do that talk for courtier in February, whenever it marked a lot of that was around really getting to know your customers. And I mean really get to know your customers, because if you don't understand your customers, it’s then, how can you align the services and the products that you're trying to supply into that business and I think the same goes for your staff, you really need to know your staff, you know, they're there. You're paying them to do a job. But if you want them to go above and beyond, if you want up loyalty, then you need to know them and they need to know you. It has to be a real, deep relationship. And you can't have that if you're in a big company with everybody in the organization, but you can structure a company that makes sure that as a top down approach, everybody cares about other people in the business they care about who's in their team. They care about the other teams in the in the organization and that literally. It's from the most junior member of staff up to the most senior member of staff and I spent eight years working in automotive manufacturing and one of the companies I worked at was a steel wheel manufacturer, so really heavy metal machine manufacturing. And when I started there, I was the IT manager and the team, the IT team I took over lived in this locked office that nobody was allowed into and they were, you know, it's all, you know, you can't go in there. That's the IT department. They do all this black art stuff. The first thing I did just take the lock off the door and they hated it because it's like, well, people will be able to come in. Yes, they will, absolutely, they will, they'll get to see you. They'll get to meet you. You will have to go out and go and meet other people in the business because you're not serving. You're not giving the good level of customer service if you're not there with them, you have no empathy for them, no understanding for why they're upset. If they're printed, doesn't work, or their PC went home on in the morning and it took a little while. But they loved it once they got used to the fact that they didn't need to sit in this little library tower. So that's like culture, really can make a big difference, is in internal customer delivery as well as that external customer delivery.

IAN

I love. I can just imagine their faces, you know, in walks. Tracy rips the lock off the door. They will absolutely crack themselves thinking what have you just, what have you hired this monster's just.

TRACY

It was hilarious actually, because, you know I mean this was back in the 19 pointers. So a woman in tech was not that common. Never mind a woman in a manufacturing company in tech as well. So you know, I used, I used to walk the shop floor. I used to go round the shop floor and talk to people who were using machines, they were on the rooms or the assembly line or the paint plant or, you know, in where the press section.

IAN

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

TRACY

Because I'm interested. So another thing that I think makes a big difference is you need to be genuinely interested in people and business. If you really want to succeed because that gives you a different edge and that gives you a different approach to conversations that you have with your staff and also with your customers because they feel that they can feel that you are genuinely wanting to help them and that you're interested in what they do and you know, I just love business. So for me, it comes naturally. So I struggle when I see a lot of MSPs who don't want to go out and they don't want to see their customers, and they don't have account management, because it's a missing gap. It's a huge opportunity, to make a big difference to how much you spend your customers spend with you, what they talk about you like who they talk to other people about you and that that kind of whole referral of getting more business from the existing business that you've got makes a massive difference, having a more personal relationship.

IAN

Do you know what I love about what? You've just been saying there tracing and kind of going super deep into this is the, you know, how do you measure it? And you're measuring it because people want to do things rather than having to do it. And it's the old adage if you know management was very much ohh, they're going to manage the process, they'll manage all got to do this. You put your arm around them and you couldn't come and do this and then all of a sudden you know in the 90s and the early noughties as leadership word popped up. What the Hell's that, all I'm not telling anybody about my feelings. I'm not going to share with anybody. What I, they just do what I want them to do, and then all of a sudden, people start talking about self-awareness and the vision and the values and all of these types. The things and I think you know the question is you know for the listeners today is you know when you look in your office, does it operating without you? Is it operating, are people talking and solving problems without you? Are they coming up to you and saying, hey, I think we can be doing something a bit of a better way. I think we should be doing that a better way, you know what's the language. What's the body load, the big test I always used to have and I work with all my teams and I'm still doing it today is when you walk in the door in the morning and you say to them say how you doing today and everyone goes, ohh I'm not bad. And I remember going into one of my senior manager mentor sessions years ago and I went into this directors office and he said that to me and I said to him ohh not bad. And he says I didn't ask you, what, you weren't, he said, ask you what you are, he said. So you alright? I said yeah, I'm good, he goes. Should we try it again? I said yeah, sure. How you doing? Saying, yeah, I'm good now we're on a winning streak. And from that point, I had those conversations and I'd walk in the office and say morning guys, good morning. How you doing? Oh, yeah, well, good, today. How different is that, just like from that language point of view.

But another thing, just one of our pick as well and you obviously do this kind of probably like probably daily, yeah, we talk about Niching and we talk about understanding our customers. But Niching is very you know, very marketing driven around you know that idea but you know account management, absolutely critical if you are not doing account management in your MSP then I want you to stop listening to this episode right now. Put a little mark on it so you can come back and go and listen to some of the episodes that Stuart and I talked about how to increase the revenue, how to increase relationships early on in the earlier in the podcast, cause we've done many, many about that. But this is about understanding your the customers that you have many MSPs that we see, they're just farming, they're farming, they're farming more, more, more, more, more. And the biggest thing that we have where we have the biggest impact when someone comes and join the growth hub is in account management is low hanging fruit. Well, I haven't spoken to them for a couple of years. Ohh no, they're all right. I don't hear from them, they're fine, they're not alright, if you haven't heard from them. How do you know they're not, how do you know that? Well, because they've run me with the problem. No, but what's going on in their business? They might be growing, they might be going on a, you know, need some more technology from you. And this is where this relationship and understanding your customers now on a scale of one to 10, how well do you understand your customers? Do you know, you know their wives names? The husband's names and things like that, not necessarily. You need to, but just trying to get a gauge on how deep that relationship. It's, you know, if you're not going and visiting them every quarter as an absolute minimum, then you should be having some of those conversations and asking those business questions. Absolutely fantastic. So we've only got one to two points so far and we're nearly out of time, but let's just keep going and see what happens. So we've got culture and then the what's the other key elements of having a strategy and keeping it and bringing it alive.

TRACY

So I think if you want a decent strategy, you have to really understand what it is that you're trying to deliver, which comes back from your culture. So you know, why did you start the business? What’s your mission as a business to succeed with and how are you doing that. So your strategy should always be in alignment with your purpose as an organization and how can you grow, you know, because growth isn't necessarily just about bringing money in, it's about how many more people can you help.

So it's about how can you expand your business to help more organisations to deliver what it is that you deliver. Because you really believe that that's better than the other company down the road or in the next city. So what is it that ultimately you're trying to achieve and it won't be necessarily monetary, it'll be other things like I want to be able to make sure that all the companies in our local area have the right products and services, they've got the right cyber protection, they've got the right systems to run their business and they're not being interrupted from running business because of technical issues. So whatever it happens to be is delivering that mission in the way that you want to be able to do it. The strategies often are best drawn up in a room with all your stuff. No. You may sit there and go. What, well, we've got 20 staff. We can't take them off the help desk. Can do this, yes you can any business can take a couple of hours out twice a year to sit in a room, go to a local hotel, go somewhere else, get somebody in to answer the phones for you for that time and just look at with everybody.

What are we succeeding with what are we doing? Well, what do we need to improve? How are we going to improve it? And who's going to own that and from a, you know that we're doing these things well. How can we do more of that? Well, what can we do to build this into a bigger business? What would you as my staff like to see happen in this organisation going forward? Because there comes a point where as a business owner, you will be the bottleneck in that organization. Because everything comes through you and that's right, because that serves your ego and that shows that you've been successful and to a point that's good, but past that point you want to get out of your own way. You want to let, as you said earlier, you want to let your business succeed. Can it run without you? And one of the best ways to see that is having those kind of twice a year strategy sessions where you've got your whole staff in there and you take time to listen to what the most junior person says to what the most senior person says and you take that on board and that informs how you act across the next year 2.

So I mean again, it's very much done to people and technology fits in there, but technology serves people, always forever. Doesn't matter what we're doing, technology serves people and it serves it in an MSP business as much as the technology that an MSP has that provides out to a customer. So it's about, you know, what are you doing internally? How are you doing it? What's going to help you to grow better and quicker. And what's going to help you being more responsive and where do you still need a human touch, where do you still need people, and why do you need those people, and what purpose do they serve and how are they adding value? So it’s bringing every element of your business together to talk about it under one umbrella without the distraction of other bits of business going on and somebody going hang on a minute. I've got a customer call, I've got to answer this on the help desk this service gone down. You want them? Why? Why somewhere where you can? Just relax and talk to them about what? Right, what's going right in this business? What's going wrong? What do we need to do to improve? How can we grow? And you, as the business owner and might have some targets that you want them to meet to introduce that, but please don't do what I heard somebody do. You know, his practice years ago, which would say to his staff, right. I want a new car. So you need to work harder. So you know, you might have your own personal goals. You might want that really nice car, but don't put it in those terms because that is such a disincentive for people to want to work. It's untrue.

IAN

The best one that I heard years ago, someone came up with a lot of change in the cable industry years ago and I used to work in there. And this one guy came up and he was and he just he goes, you are here to pay for my mortgage. And it was like, and everybody just literally almost like got up and walked out anyway. That was in the park, Tracy, that last three or four minutes has been one of those mic drop moments.

Wow. So if you are not meeting your teams on a, you know, at least, you know, annually, bi-annually, you're asking those great questions being open. But you can only do that when you've got the culture and you've got the right people and you've got the behaviours and that's the bit to connect it together. So we'll wrap this all up in a in a couple of minutes, but that last piece that Tracy just talked about, that agenda she's given you the agenda, she's given you the reason, the purpose and you go and do that. In your business, it will blow the bloody doors off, it will really. It'll blow your doors off to start with and then it'll blow the doors off because that's one of those engaging times when people, you're asking people their opinion. And then it's my mum, bless her, you know, sort of, said Ian, you got two ears and one mouth, use them in that your job in that session is to listen. It's to listen and ask great questions and extract. What do you mean by that and what does that mean and what does that mean and what does that mean, we can do, you know, and then you'll get those people who will be able to come round and really help you drive that business forward.

TRACY

Yeah. And interestingly, many years ago, somebody said to me there's two types of listening. There's active listening and passive listening. And with active listening, you're not listening to respond. You're listening to understand. And that's the difference between passive and active listening. So as a business owner, you need to listen to understand, not to just respond.

IAN

Another little great thing on there and I love that one, Julia. One of our leadership coaches, we were doing a session with our guys the other day, the clients the other day, and she said in it she goes in sales. You need to be interested, not interesting. And it was interested in what everybody's doing rather than, oh, this is me, this is what we're doing. No, you need to be interested in what they're saying. And that was a great point.

Tracy, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you today. Absolutely love it, this could have gone on for hours and hours and hours as we both know loads and loads of gold Nuggets in there. Loads and loads of gold and tips and tricks. Wrapping this up as a summary, what do people need to do as soon as they get off this podcast?

TRACY

Check their internal culture. If it's not right, do something about it. Have your purpose, your reason written down. Share it with all your staff so that they buy into it. Understand your customers really, really well. So what you're applying to understanding your business also apply that outwards to your customer and above everything else, if you can do it twice a year, then do it if you can only do it once a year, please go off site for at least a couple of hours with your entire team and have that business strategy session. Make them part of the solution in the future. Very important.

IAN

Absolutely amazing. Thank you very much. And as we know, you are very much involved embedded probably the chief executive, whatever your job title is this week is of the amazing CompTIA community, which is this worldwide community of tech leaders. Tell everybody a little bit about just for a couple of seconds on why do they need to get involved. You need to go and check out CompTIA and learn about what this is all about and how it can help you.

TRACY

Okay, so CompTIA is the computing technology industry association. As you say, it's a global community that is there to serve anybody who's in the tech industry. So it's a great community for people to come together, fantastic Networking Opportunity, peer-to-peer learning. There's a lot of research that CompTIA does because it's a big organization that is vendor neutral research. Absolutely fantastic. You can use that in your business. So if you want to take stats from the cyber studies and give those out to prospects, you can do that and you can reference tier materials. It's got a whole ton of education programs for vendors, for distributors, for managed service providers, and there are just some genuinely brilliant people in the community. So if you come across it, please go to a community. And it's really hard to describe until you actually get there and you experience it. And that was my experience when I came in to come to here because I had not heard of them, didn't know who they were, ignored everything that came my way until somebody said, well, if you want to understand it, go to a community meeting sold within 5 minutes the atmosphere, the friendliness, the support, thought of the ethos, the culture, it is exactly what we need as an industry to take us forward.

IAN

Exactly. And I think I'm not quite sure when this podcast will be going out, but the one to keep an eye out for will be the EMEA con in London. It's absolutely incredible event, go and check the website out, go and see what it's all around and we look forward to seeing you there.

Tracy, if anybody wants to continue the conversation and maybe if anybody wants to hire you out to come and take the lock off the IT department’s door, if they haven't got the gumption to do that themselves. How do they get in contact with you.

TRACY

So the easiest thing is on LinkedIn, you'll find me Tracy Pound. I'm a verified person on LinkedIn, so just look out for Tracy Pound.

IAN

Ohh did you do that, I didn't. I never did.

TRACY

I'll do it.

IAN

That I thought, why do you need my passport?

TRACY

Yeah, I know. I was a little bit, should I do this or shouldn't I do this? But I've had a lot more contact since I've done that. I only did it last week, but yeah, LinkedIn is probably the easiest and quickest way to find me or look at the website its just maximity.co.UK.

IAN

Fantastic Tracy, thanks ever so much. Good luck with your endeavours, with Maximity and with CompTIA, and also the amazing work which we're going to talk about, probably in another podcast with women in tech as well, which you're a great advocate for and is incredible work that you're doing there. So all the best of luck. Thanks again. We're going to catch up with you on the next show. See you all soon.

TRACY

Bye.

OUTRO

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