EP192 - How to Deal with Toxic Employees
with Julie Hutchison & Ian Luckett

INTRO

In this episode of the IT Experts Podcast, we help you work out how to deal with Toxic employees.

Welcome to the IT Experts Podcast, the only podcast to help MSP's scale to 1,000,000, and if already there get to five and go fast at the end of the day, isn't it all about building a business that works for you rather? Than. You for it. I hope you enjoy the show.

IAN

So, good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome wherever you are today, we have Julie Hutchison back in the podcast lounge, who is one of our leadership coaches at the MSP Growth Hub. And today, we're going to be talking about how to deal with toxic employees, which is a nice bitey exciting subject, isn't it, Julie?

JULIE

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, open area, I call them normally, you know like.

IAN

Get yes. Get one of those. Get a nice, nice prickly subject. Well, welcome back again today and again. We've got a topic that's really important that we're going to run through a couple of key areas to help you to overcome some toxic employees. You know, everybody in everybody in everybody's business doesn't always get along and always connected, they're not the same gender with different lives in personal different lives in business lives but every now and then we come across people who we just feel are just like. Oh, I just, yeah. I think that's it, isn't it? Just feel, I just don't want this person in my I don't know how to deal with them. I can't get rid of them. What do I need to kind of do with them about. Give us a bit of context, Julie. And what you're seeing in the leadership space around this really difficult, thorny, hairy objects.

JULIE

Yeah, it's really interesting because I mean, I've been a workplace mediator and a mediation trainer for far too many years. I care to mention to partners, and so I've seen an awful lot. And what I see is a massive avoidance of issues until they get to that what I call the big old hairy horrible. Yeah, difficult thing to deal with and then we see, ohh you know, Bob's a toxic employee, or it's all Bob's fault and we end up, like, demonising these people, who potentially could have been alright at the start, or maybe we never liked him in the 1st place, but it's almost like this big thing that we we end up either avoiding until it's really, really difficult and then it becomes horrific or we just kind of like adjust around people and put up with stuff. They actually really impacts over time on the productivity, therefore profitability. But you know in everybody's lives as well, everybody there not just the leaders but what we see is that leaders don't know how to deal with it. They don't want to deal with it cause it's in the too difficult box. And so they're kind of like, ohh, you know, and then it just gets so, so difficult and so stressful that it becomes the hardest or one of the hardest parts of their day to day job.

IAN

So what is, you know, in a typical MSP, what is a toxic employee? How do they show up? What do they look like? How do we identify them?

JULIE

Or anybody in my opinion, can be a toxic employee in that it's a really I think it's a very harsh term, it's a term that we all love to use. However, for me, in my experience, I think actually it's kind of an excuse term to blame other people for the employers and we've labeled them as toxic. That's all they can be, you know, so when we say toxic employee, what you're going to be seeing is somebody who is getting on your nerves or who is being awkward in your eyes, or who isn't doing what you want them to do with a smile on their face, let's say, and is making your life harder and everybody else's life harder. So they might be like sucking the energy be out of the room, they might be sucking your energy, they might be taking up a lot of your time and there might be somebody that you wish you never employed because you don't know how to deal with that problem. And so the, you know, the benefit doesn't outweigh the effort that you've got to put in and you're thinking, cry. I'm paying this person and it's harder for me to have them here than not.

IAN

Yeah, yeah.

JULIE

And over time, obviously we at first when we get somebody, we think, oh, we've gotta put the F in. We've gotta do, you know, do all these things so the return on our investment in anybody takes time. But I think it's where we're looking at this like the investment that I'm putting in or that team are putting in isn't giving me that benefit back again and I think that's when we start thinking ohh it's a toxic employee and not worth having them there and so we feel like ohh toxic want to get rid. And I think that that's kind of how we would describe what's going on, although I'm, you know, probably in my opinion and I'll explain later that I don't necessarily that that's a fair label for many people.

IAN

So what sort of behaviours would they be? You know, you've talked a lot about, you know, how you as a leader are going to feel about them. But what would you know, what would this employee kind of look like? What sort of behaviours would they show up because it's also around, you know, they probably don't display the company values either, do they?

JULIE

No. So you're probably like the old computer says no type thing, you know. And if you've just seen that, you might not have seen it, but the old Inside Out to the film a moment there's a character in there called on Ennui, you know the old French boredom, right? So they're like, no, there's a lot of no going on. I think what you're going to be seeing with the toxic employee, it depends on the reason and what's going on. But you're going to be seeing that it's an effort to get them to do something. So they're not going to be giving their discretionary effort. There, you know, you're literally having to sort of feed them everything to get them to do something you might be having to, you know, kind of say like, can you do this, or they literally just do something like only that and they're not thinking that's kind of a low level, but then they might be not doing what you've asked or they say, yeah, I'm going to do that. And then they don't do it.

You know, moving on from that, you might see somebody who is pushing other people's buttons, making life harder for people, you know, not trying to build relationships, but actively, you know, pulling those relationships apart. Or it might be the office gossip or it might be somebody who's, you know, just complaining and coming in. You know, and and then sort of giving everybody all the, the, the, the sort of sucking the engine negativity out of the room like I was at the gym the other day and the woman come in and all she did was like ohh, this is terrible this. And everybody was happy before was like oh. You know, like what was what's going on. And I think it's those people that kind of like, suck that team and energy and enjoyment out of the room for some reason are, you know, oozing this either negativity or kind of like slowness and pulling, you know, like you feel like you're going through treacle and you just don't feel like it's like a in flow. Let's say, you know, you probably out flow. And it just feels like, you know, like, well, why aren't they just doing what, what I want them to do, why are they being –

IAN

Yeah, it was just why is it so hard work, yeah.

JULIE

Why is it such hard work? And there's many reasons for it. But that's kind of things that you're gonna be seeing and as a leader, what you'll be thinking is well, they're just doing that. You know, if you're going to call them toxic, you're probably thinking it's their fault, it's something they're doing.

IAN

Yeah. So Julie, tell us how do we deal with toxic employees in our MSPs?

JULIE

Well, I think the biggest thing that we need to do is to to really ask ourselves the question what's actually happening here, what's going on and why is that going on? Because it's really easy to just blame others or look at it and go, oh, they're broken, I can't fix that. As leaders and business owners, just so dare I say it, put a big boy and girl pants on and actually have the difficult conversation that isn't necessarily going to be easy, and he's going to be super uncomfortable. Probably because who likes that apart from me, but like, but nobody really wants to have that. But the problem is if we don't, then it's not going to change because there's a kind of like a way of working now and emo in the office, you know what's what, what's happening. So I think the first thing we have to do is to say I'm going to come with the attitude of like, I need to understand underneath here and find out a little bit more and that means we have to have the conversation with that person.

So the first thing I'm saying I would say is that you need to sit down somewhere private, obviously. And the first thing I think is to name it to call out, what is happening here and with empathy and say, you know what I'm seeing is and actually saying, you know. For example, Bob when I, you know, what I'm seeing in the office is, is that quite often you know you're talking about people or whether they're doing, you know, or you're quite negative about things. And the problem is, is the impact that we're having on that that's having, is this making the team really sad or making the team really awkward. And then everybody feels uncomfortable, we're not getting work done because we're focusing on this bad stuff. So we're labelling what we're seeing, doing it with empathy without that blame of like, you're just miserable so and so or whatever, you know don't do it that way. Do it with this with this sort of just name the thing and then with empathy say, well, you know, I'd really like to know what's happening because we have to understand this reason why before we start then saying, well, this is what we're going to do. Because we can't jump to those conclusions. So asking that question like, what’s going on, Bob, what's happening for you? And I think we already talked about in another episode actually about human needs and so really what we're looking at here is going back and saying, well, what's not being met for Bob, let's say what is happening because all of this behaviour, any behaviour, good or bad, is a response to a stimulus. So what's going on, you know what is happening in Bob's life, it might be, you know his wife left him or, you know, some things wrong. What he's heard something you don't know what's happening. So we need to be able to stop and listen for long enough. And you might need to build a bit of a pool there and a bit of trust and everything else, and this might take a little bit of time, but you need to understand what need is not being met. Bob and I can hear you all screaming at you saying what about me?

IAN

Me, me, me, me.

JULIE

But that's yes, we will do that. But first of all just give it, give it some time because actually we might be able to resolve this by understanding you know, this is why he's doing what he's doing. Let's say and then once they say, well, you know, well, if there's nothing, then you know. Right, okay, well, if you're not willing to admit what's happened, this is the change that we want to see. Because this is the impact that this is having on the team or on us or whatever it might be. So we need to help them to see the impact of that behaviour and understand, you know, why they're doing it. And then, regardless of what it is, if it is or your wife left me and I'm feeling really sour about things, then we need to also help them to understand that's not okay to take that out on people in the office. So because we all know that, you know, sometimes, you know, you come home from work, you've had a bad day, you slam the door and everybody at home, it feels like, you know, and it's the same the other way around. What's happening potentially is that something's triggering them and they're just bringing it to the office with them, for example or it might be within the office and so we need them to say, to understand that as a grown up, we need that stop and breathe before we respond to whatever trigger is happening to them and to help them to understand now. This is why we need that to stop and to help them to make that choice of or actually, yeah, I'm going to think about that. I'm going to change my behaviour. And when we start to do that, if we can understand what's going on for them and empathize with them, they can feel like, well, you understand. Then you aren't necessarily saying that's an excuse, but you can understand what's going on for them. And if you do that because somebody feels a bit more heard a bit when you then they can they lower their stress response, they'll lower that trigger and they're like, okayy, yeah, okay, that's probably wasn't the best response or no, I can see that. I'm not being very helpful in the office. And you're building relationships, you're building understanding. And therefore that person can respond in a much better way because. If you think about it. You know, somebody's coming and having a negative response to something that's going on for them is it's probably a completely unaware type response. Yeah, I'm conscious, and so we're bringing that conscious to them, but we have to do it with that, with the otherwise all you get is a push back and then you get a fight, yeah.

IAN

And this is classic shadow the leaders self-awareness, isn't it understanding what's going on around you, what's going on to you and and kind of like what's happening with the with the other party as well.

JULIE

Yeah. And the other thing is, is you might find out that actually there's something else deeper going on in the office. Like, I don't know, Bob's heard Felicity saying something really horrible, and now he's like, you know, really not feeling laughed in the office and therefore, that’s where the toxic behaviour is actually coming from, so we can do something about it once we know about it, and we're big enough to kind of hear what's really going on. Now, obviously, all of this, it does mean that person will have to stop being, you know, toxic, but they might turn around and say, well, actually it's you, you know, or I don't like the way you spoke to me on Monday or whatever you know, or you're bullying whatever the thing is. And so we have to take responsibility for what we're going to hear as well, because if we really want change, there's probably some change for more than one person. And we need to look at ourselves as you said that’s around the shadow of the leader.

IAN

So we have talked about this in a previous podcast, but what's the framework that you would suggest to starting to have this difficult conversation with this employee?

JULIE

Yeah. So, well, well, I always go on about the bin model and I think it's the best way to do it you can use that and within if you want to use a coaching framework as well, we use a grow model. We've talked about that.

IAN

I'm sure if we have just run us through that quickly. Julie, what the problem, what’s the growth, what the grow model is. Yeah.

JULIE

Model. Yeah. Yeah. So the grow model is a coaching model basically grow because it's GRO for you. Which is what's the goal of what we're trying to do here, what's the reality of where we are at the moment and what options do we have to take ourselves forward? And then what are we going to commit to. So if you imagine in this situation, if you were going to try and coach this person, first of all, what I would do, because you're the one who bring it, they won't have a goal of sorting this out necessarily. So it might be your going off, it's your fault.

IAN

Of the minute, isn't it?

JULIE

Sure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I would start with a little bit of reality. So GRW is a methodology of going through a conversation. Okay, we start with what do you want to achieve and where are you now? Well, I would turn that around a little bit and start with where are you now. And where are we now? Let's say, and then I would use the bin model, which is behaviour impact need. In other words, Ian, you know what we're seeing at the moment is you know you being, you know, shouting in the office and shouting at your staff and the impact of that is that they are, they're not happy about that. They don't really want to work with you anymore. And you know, she was, she had enough here or whatever it might be.

IAN

You're not allowed, and then need.

JULIE

So that was behaviour that's impact and then need is like we need to sort this out. We need you to you know build those relationships with your employees. So behavior needs a little model that will allow you to not do the. Hey, Ian, I think you're an idiot type blame language. So we're not blaming we're understanding we're telling you a fact. This is the behaviour. This is the impact and this is what we need and then you can move into that coaching conversation of like. You know what's going on for you a little bit more about. That's where we talk about what's going on, understanding that reality a bit more, so digging into their first and then saying, OK, so you know, where do you want to be? Ian, where do you want? Where do you rather be here? Because I know where I'd rather be, I'd rather that we had, you know, a positive relationship and we want to see people harmony, harmony and work or whatever you want to say. That's the goal here, but this is what we are seeing what do we what can we do about it?

So the reality part of that going on in this kind of situation would be much, much bigger because here you're saying why is this happening, you know what's going on, what's underneath all those things that we just talked about, what's underneath all of that. So you're going to spend some time, really, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig. But you're going to lead the we want this goal to do harmony and you to be happy as well Ian, or whoever it might be, you know what I mean to talk about really helping them to see that where they want to get them to agree to that and then say, okay, so what are our options and then we can say we're coaching them because we're asking them to take responsibility for it as well as us because you don't know what's come out yet. You know, it might be actually, you know what, yeah, I need to change the way I'm dealing with this. So I suppose the options in this. It's you're kind of coaching two people at the same time. You're still and then, yeah, what options can we have here and say, well, you know, actually, maybe I could take a deep breath before I come into work or maybe I could think about my behaviour before I do it or, you know, or don't get so stressed.

If you know and I don't know whatever thing might do that they actually suggest and it might be no, we all actually have to sit down and we have to talk about this as a group. So it could be anything that might come out of that, and then that, and using that grammar or you know, what do you commit to is, you know? What we're going to do is tying you and them down to some actions. Because if you think about in that conversation, if you can pull it into that kind of coaching conversation at the end, what you want is both of you and them to have a plan to walk away with so that you can make sure that you change what you're doing, what they're doing, whatever needs to be changed, you know.

IAN

Unless the win win for both, isn't it at the end of the day, it's not just about a one-way conversation.

JULIE

Is it and that's the really, really important part. It's a win-win for both of you two, if you two are in the conversation. If there's other people involved, it needs to be women for them. So whatever we're looking at is not just compromise is which is one of the things that we think we have to do, which is not the perfect answer, but the best answer is collaboration. It's like how can we make this work together? How can we start to have a look at what each other's needs are? And you might say, you know, well, I need everybody to be getting on in the office. You need to feel respected, Bob or whatever the thing might be. Let's look at how we can actually make that happen and come up with a plan. And if you can do that, what you're doing is you're respecting that person, but you're also asking them to show up as an adult and you're showing up as an adult, not, yeah, parent child or two children arguing. And, you know, which is quite easy to do, even though we're all adults.

IAN

Yeah, yeah.

JULIE

It's easy to fall into that trap of, you know, showing up in that way. And so once you've done that, you've just had a really good conversation that's focused on change, focused on action, but it's also focused on respect and listening to what's really going on for that person.

IAN

So when you're finished having that conversation, you kind of got a bit of an agreement. You understand where each of you is coming from, how often would you recommend that someone then sits down and then just kind of checks in when you're agreeing and checks in on the plan, would that be a weekly thing, would you leave it a month, what would you, would it depend on the severity to you of the issues or what would you recommend?

JULIE

Yeah, I I think, yeah, it's follow up as agreed in that plan. So if you think about it, if I say to you like say to Bob like like.

IAN

This it's follow up, isn't it? It's a classic follow.

JULIE

Bob. You know, over the next few weeks, I really want to try and think about your behavior and think about how the impact you're having on people. Why don't you just watch people a little bit Bob and and see what impact you know you're having on them and he goes.

IAN

Yeah.

JULIE

Yeah. Okay. That I'll tell you what you know in this gives us two weeks and this come back and have a conversation about that. Yeah. Don't leave that a year and then say, Bob, you've not changed because you're not helping them to be motivated and to have those follow-ups. So I think being reasonable about what you're doing. And I tell you what I do here. A lot of the timing is that especially in this space and I don't know why, it's probably everywhere, but I think we've been doing a lot of work with MSPs lately and it's almost like I feel like it needs to be so formal. I've got to sit you down with my, you know, my, my, my pen.

IAN

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JULIE

And my lip.

IAN

You get married.

JULIE

Yeah. And I'm like, well, hang on a minute. That's a coffee or, you know, it's a obviously in a nice private place if you can. Yeah. So, like, it's a huge human check in. It's a, you know, and it depending on what you're asking to do, because this might be accompanied by a like. You know, this really needs to be sorted out, otherwise we're going to end up on a on some kind of plan or other or, you know, there's a negative outcome that might happen. Yeah. So depending on how that is, but it might be, look, let's check in, see how you're doing. Let's check in, because we want to see an improvement. So if we see an improvement in a couple of weeks, you know and let's keep talking. About it, if we see that, that's great. If we don't see that, then we're going to have to look at, you know, other more formal methods. But really, what you need is a human conversation because you need to give them the opportunity to range, but you need to build that rapport in order to do that, you need to help them to trust that cause. Remember you asking them to do something really quite tricky. Yeah, because they're stuck in a way of being. And in a response, you're asking them to stop and get out of that. So they need a bit of that support, a little bit of like understanding. Yeah, but a little bit of encouragement. And some, you know, outcome of if they don’t do it. And all of that needs you to, you know, just be human with them and say, like, how you doing? How's it going? Let's have a sit down. Why don't you pop in my office a second and let's just have a quick coffee and let me hear what's going on for you. What's working coming back into that coaching conversation, how's it going? What's going on? What's your next plan? What you're trying to achieve, right? Okay, great. You know, and getting them to keep thinking about what they need to be doing and how they need to be responding because you could turn this around and instead of losing a technically great person. Who's annoying you? You could. Help them to see that you care, which means they will be much more loyal. They will want to work with you and so suddenly their technical expertise becomes even more valuable because they are engaged with you. They're engaged with the team. And so it's 100 times more impact for your business and then you don't have to either pay them off or you know, pay a recruitment agency to find somebody new because you have to get rid of them and. And So what you're doing is changing the ROI of this employee with a little bit of different investment in time and empathy and understanding and you know, you got to call it out. You got to say, this is what I need to see different. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying just love them, but I'm asking you to think, well, why is this person doing it? Because we're all human and we're doing something because of a reason.

IAN

And that's the kind of like the wrap up the conclusion, isn't it? That you know, if you don't do this. You know the impact of not doing this is that this toxicity, all this negativity will spread like you just mentioned about that, that Lady in the gym, everyone was all motivated, she came in huffing and puffing, and Oh my God, this is a chore. And. Yeah, well, mine said there was something. I was reading the other day, which was a book. It was booked by Napoleon Hill, actually well now this.

JULIE

Think and grow rich.

IAN

No, it was actually success habits. It was his first one in the company. He was like, written in the early 1900s. It's bonkers, but it's all the classic, you know, personal development stuff and basically said you can only sit in the positive or the negative side of your brain. You can only do one of the you know, and you only have one or the other, you know you're sorry, you only have one or the other, you only have two sides of your brain, so you can either be thinking positively or you can be thinking negatively and generally if you've got someone who's in that toxic place, they're going to be living in their negative brain. Yeah, lady who walks into the gym, was living in a negative brain. So decide where you want to hang out. You know, if you want to hang out in the in the positive world and this is why they talk about the, you know, you become the average of the five people you hang around with. If you're hanging around with positive people, guess what? If you're hanging around people and moaning and groaning and you're moaning and groaning. Also, guess what, so it's, it is and it's.

JULIE

Bishop burkle. Yeah, I can think about like you know about the technique of football if we're not careful, couldn't we but you know, if there is not the right energy and we've got negativity, it's actually really hard for the other people to do something different.

IAN

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JULIE

Because we don't want to, like, put ourselves out there and kick a ball up front if there's no one there to catch it. If you don't catch it, kick it or whatever you do in football. But you know what I mean. So we're not going to put ourselves out because we've got we've not got the support. You know, we're going yo look like the outlier now. We're going to look like an idiot cause we tried something.

IAN

No, not at all. Yeah.

JULIE

But if we have, says, you're doing that for whatever you know, and then you going to be the one who's weird and wonderful in the team and nobody wants to be that apart from me normally. But it means that you're kind of stopping other people from being more positive. So there's that kind of natural tendency to everybody being more negative. So it does take a bit of momentum to push. You know, it's like trying to start around about, you know, you've got to push and push and push and then eventually the flyer roll comes in the other direction of like much more positivity.

IAN

Exactly. Brilliant stuff. That was absolutely brilliant, Julie. I love it when we throw in bin model, growing model and all of those companies. What's your summary on today's call? What's the actions that the MSP maybe have a couple of employees either in their business or want to spread this over into dealing with some, maybe some difficult children or something in their in their home life. What's the top tips to take away?

JULIE

Ohh yeah. I think you know, just thinking about first of all, your mindset of like if you're saying Bob's a problem or you have a toxic employee, stop yourself for a second and think what's going on underneath. That's the first thing. Take responsibility for thinking there might be more to this and I need to find it. I'm a detective here. Okay, that's the first thing. Secondly. Big Boy or Girl Pants on and ask the question, name it, speak to the person, label it with the bin model. You know behaviour impact need use coaching to try to get them to work towards where we need to go to take that responsibility. Don't hide it. Ask them the questions. But do it with empathy and come out of that with actions for yourself and for them, and then check in and make sure that they're working through that and they're taking responsibility. And if the worst comes to worse, remember, yeah, you can go down that good old HR route. But you're better off not doing it because the investment here will be worth it in the end. If you can turn this around, okay. If you're struggling, don't forget ask for help, because it isn't always the easiest thing, and there are people out there that can help you with this, even if it's just a it's cause. It's a stressful thing, even if it's just, you know, bend somebody's ear about it, whether it be a coach or just a, you know, the MSP growth hub, whoever it might be, you know, just ask that question, reach out and get help.

IAN

Brilliant stuff, Julie. Thanks ever so much again for your time putting the show together. Absolutely cracking one. I know everybody's resonated with, with everybody, even in the past. And if it isn't for you right now, it might be something that might pop up in the future as and when you bump into people or you're building your incredible network. So until next time, thanks again. Look after yourselves. And have a great day. See you soon, bye.

JULIE

Bye.

OUTRO

Hang on a minute. Just before you go. And if you're curious about how this episode links with the ability to scale your MSP to a million or if you're already there, accelerate to five, then one invite you to come and take the MSP mastery quiz. And in just three minutes, you're going to get a 300 and seat. If you scan of your business, where you can identify the one or two tactics that help you find more time, engage and align with people. Help generate more leads in your MSP. Pretty simple. Just click on the link in the show notes. And if you have enjoyed this episode, we'd love to get some feedback from you by means of a rating review on Spotify or iTunes or your podcast platform of choice. We really appreciate every single one. Now you can go and enjoy the rest of your day and we look forward to your acting up and connecting. All the best.