EP211 - Why People Don't Take Action When They Should with Julie Hutchison & Ian Luckett

IAN: In this episode of the IT Experts Podcast, we help you understand why you don't take decisions when sometimes you know that you should.

INTRO: Welcome to the IT Experts podcast, the only podcast to help MSPs scale to 1 million and if already there, get to 5 and go fast. At the end of the day, isn't it all about building a business that works for you rather than you for it? I hope you enjoy the show.

IAN: So good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to the IT Experts podcast. In this amazing show, we have our incredible Julie Hutchinson back in the house, our leadership coach at the MSP Growth Hub. Good morning, Julie. How are you doing today?

JULIE: Hello, I'm fabulous. Thank you.

IAN: Great stuff. Just in case people don't know who you are, what you do and who you help. Why don't you tell them?

JULIE: Okay. Yeah. Hi everyone. I am a team performance specialist. And so that means that everything that you need your people to do, I help you to make sure that happens, whether that be helping them directly or whether it be helping you to be the lead that you need to be. So that they want to be in the room with you and they want to do the work and they can do the work.

IAN: Fantastic. Doesn't that sound so, so simple. Julie is an integral part of the MSP Growth Hub and we help our clients to understand, this whole thing called leadership, right? How to get the most out of yourself, to get the most out of your team. And today we're going to be talking about a really interesting subject. So you may have heard us talking before about getting out your own way. We're Building confidence, why don't I do this? And we're going to talk about something called imposter syndrome today. Which some people may have, some people may not have, some people may have it and they don't know they've got it, but it's all about understanding why that sometimes you might be scared or fearful or not have the confidence in making the decision you might hold back, you might procrastinate an awful lot. And the sad thing that, the reason that we're doing this show is because we see so many. Business owners and people in life who you look at a year later and they go, oh, I wish I'd done that at that time. Look at the impact that would have made. Oh, I wish I'd done this. And oh, I wish I'd done that. And we all know that you're, everybody's listening to this today saying yes, I know a client who I wish that they'd made a decision quicker and now we've helped them or they've been compromised and now we've helped them. They should have done it sooner and all this sort of thing. So we're going to help you to understand what it is, understand how it shows up and understand what to do about it. Aren't we, Julie? Top of the shot. What is, we'll call it imposter syndrome, but in reality, how does this show up in most people's lives?

JULIE: Yeah, I think all the training I've ever done they hate the word imposter syndrome because it's not a syndrome. You're not broken. You're not, it's not a problem for you, it is a problem, but it's not like you're not broken. And Imposter, let's call it imposter syndrome, but imposter syndrome is basically something that over 70% , I've done it. I'm here. There's no question about it. And then other times you're like, I just can't seem to get past it. And so what imposter syndrome, for want of a better word is that feeling of Oh, I'm not, I, maybe I shouldn't even be here. I don't know that I can do this. Everybody else is better than me. Especially when you're in the room with your clients, we sit there in a group of all people who are wonderful MSPs and they sit there looking at each other sometimes and think why am I not doing this thing I need to do? Or why are they doing better than me? And so what we're looking at here, it's not whether you sold more than other people, not those risks but what am I doing that's holding me back the behaviors that I'm displaying that are getting in my way? And then you're right. It might be procrastination. It might be perfectionism. It might be avoiding opportunities or trying to get the next qualification. It might be one of those things. So behaviors that we do that stop us from just getting on with things. Okay, but it's caused by us feeling anxious, confused or overwhelmed by things that something's going on in our head, basically, that is making us feel that way. And so we might logically think that's a simple task. That's an easy thing to do. Why am I not doing it? And if we try to, what I call, logicalize ourselves out of that, we're like, it doesn't make sense. Why am I not doing it? It's easy. And then often a coach, might say just do this great old just, and then it doesn't happen and you're still like, you find yourself like, tidying your desk loads of times, or you find yourself, coming back on a call and going, oh, I never did it. I don't know why. Oh, I'm just going to make sure and tweak this thing. And I'm not sure. And feeling not good enough, really, because Bob already did it. And why can't I, and all of those feelings. And so what happens is that we then are stopping ourselves from making bold decisions. We're stopping ourselves from. Taking that action or even maybe going for that really great client that we've always wanted and things like that. But it's not something that you can literally say, oh just do that. The good old phrase, just do it. It doesn't apply because it doesn't happen because what's happening is something inside that is stopping us. And it's not a logical thing.

IAN: Is this sometimes the same as what we sometimes call fear of failure and fear of success? Is it the fear of looking silly to other people?

JULIE: It can include that. Absolutely, if you think about let's go take us back to, stone age, let's say, do less. Can you imagine us all running around?

IAN: No, I can't. And I'm now starting to see things I want to unsee. In our little Do it with a spear. Chasing a lion for dinner.

JULIE: I think we were probably before that bit. But the thing is, take yourselves back to that. There's a high threat situation. There's a high likelihood of us dying. Yeah, we didn't get past a very young age. And I think that, we're probably likely to die in child, as a little child because we are not safe. Okay. And you've heard the phrase safety in numbers.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: And so if you think about that, our brains were pretty primitive then. And the main thing that we're trying to do with that primitive brain is stay alive. Okay. And so what's happening is as we've grown into the humans that we are now, we still have that element of the primitive brain that says, stay alive for God's sake, don't go, don't be doing things that are going to harm you. Okay. The problem is that in that we have a bit of a brain called the amygdala that is saying, that's a threat. That's going to harm you. And so what we want is to stay safe. The way that we stayed safe in stone age, or if you imagine you've seen those films, those programs where the old Thompsons of girls are running Thompson's because there was a running through the Savannah or wherever it is. And the one at the back with a dodgy leg, he's always going to get got by the lion. Yeah. I hated those programs. But what your brain is doing the same. Don't get got by the lion safety and numbers. And so I need to be accepted. I need to be part of a group. I need to belong. Okay, so if I need to be accepted and be part of a group, and I need to belong, then anything that could be not accepted, not part of group, not belonging, or things like that have happened to us.

Our amygdala says that's a threat because you might be that little Thompson's Gazelle hanging out the back, yeah, and you're the one who's going to get got. You might get left behind as a baby, you might get abandoned as an adult, you might get thrown out. And then you're the one who is at risk of dying, okay? And you might think that sounds a bit extreme. But your brain, your amygdala is only that it's from a long time ago. And all it's doing is going threat. And so what's happening is that if your brain is considering that taking that risk or doing that thing is a threat, then you won't do it. You will avoid, or you will try and stop that from happening. And you will be anxious. Okay. So your brain is that's it. So you've heard of fight, flight, or freeze. Yeah. And so your nervous system goes, Jesus Christ, either run from that lion. or freeze and pretend you're not there, yeah, or let's fight. And so your brain goes into stress, you get anxious you either do fight, flight, or freeze, and you are doing all these things because your fight, flight, or freeze is kicking in. So like avoiding, it's like a freeze thing, yeah, over preparing and procrastinating is I'm going to avoid it. I'm just going to, I'm going to just hide in the corner. It's going to go away in a minute. It's going to go away, exactly. Or if somebody tries to push you into, I don't know, presenting, you get really angry. That's because you're fighting because your nervous system is don't make me do that thing. Yeah. So your nervous system is in the extreme Jesus Christ, there's a danger. There's a danger. So you go into all these. And it goes into so what we call survival strategies to try to keep yourself safe. So survival strategies might be distract people from distract from it or drama of, make something a big drama and then and then you're heard and you're not left out in the cold or power, keep control, or praise and approval. where I need people to tell me that I'm okay. I need people to give me that. So what you're doing is you're trying to tell your brain, you're trying to get your brain to feel better. And in doing that, what you're doing is trying to remove the threat or to get yourself in a place where you're safe. Okay. So the easiest thing to do is not to do the thing that,

IAN: That's where the deflection comes from. So let's bring it. I love, I do love talking about analogies and stories and cavemen and sorry, Stuart running around with a spear chasing a lion to get the family, to get the growth hub family meal. There's a thought that many people won't be. I don't know where that came from. Let's bring this into business land for the MSP now. Let's talk about to start with, the idea of, they've got their business up and running. Many, as we know, are techie business owners come from technical background. And, as you've seen it, as well as ours, we have conversations with people, they come and join the growth hub. And then they sit in a room of people who are on a different part of the journey doing really well. And We know that some of them sit there going, I'm not worthy being in this room I'm at the bottom of the bucket. Why am I in this room?

JULIE: Everybody's doing better than I am. Yeah.

IAN: What's going on in their heads there? What's happening all there, Julie?

JULIE: There'll be something for all of us, and we're not broken, but we experience things. And like I said, that amygdala is like, is this a threat? Threats come from when we're younger. So what's happening is somewhere in our brain, we're like, oh, you know, I'm only good enough if I'm, If I'm successful, I'm only good enough if I'm top of the bunch or I'm only good enough in this. And so we're just running strategies that stop us from taking those risks so that we don't fail, so that we don't look silly, so our brain is trying to protect us. That's all it's doing. It's just trying to protect us. So we're just running strategies. When we say, or oh I don't feel like I'm meant to be here. There's something that we were probably told as a kid oh, you, you've got curly hair. So you're, people don't like us with curly hair or I don't know, people, we come from a blue collar background. So people like us don't make money.

IAN: That's a really limited beliefs, isn't it?

JULIE: From parents, limiting beliefs and things like that. So our belief that I'm only worthy if I am doing X, Y, or Z and therefore we're going to protect ourselves from doing. Not X, Y, Z. Yeah. And so all we're doing is protecting and hiding or distracting or trying to maneuver ourselves out of a painful, overwhelming or anxious situation. And so we look at other people. And because of what we're told, you're not like those people, or you can't do this, or whatever we were told when we were younger. And it could be from parents, it could be from your blooming teacher. Who do you think you are, trying to get above your station. All little phrases like this, people like us don't get those kind of things, and those things will be going on in people's heads, and they won't even be aware of it. They won't remember a lot of this stuff. They won't even really think about it. Understand where it's coming from. They'll just have that feeling. Yeah, and so they'll sit there and just say then just give themselves excuses. because they're trying to protect how they feel.

IAN: Are they trying to stand still , while the lion run past and won't even notice me?

JULIE: Yeah. So let's think about it. In the room, like if you've got people saying just do this, right? Fight, flight, or freeze. So they'll either stay quiet because they're frozen. They don't want to, they don't want to put themselves out there. So they don't want to ask a question because they don't feel they've got a right to ask the question or somebody challenges it and then they fight. So then they get really defensive. I don't want to do that. Then I don't want to do that. And so what's showing up for people in business is they'll say, I don't want to do this or no, that's not where I want to be. And the reality is it's because they feel very uncomfortable in having to go down that road. Yeah. Freeze or do nothing Yeah. Fight, obviously, I get, I try to maybe Attack so I don't have to deal with it.

IAN: So it's distraction, fine. Everything's okay.

JULIE: All of that stuff is because of how we feel not because of what's really possible for us. And so it stops us from taking that action in our business And we need to be aware of it because it's normal But what happens is we feel bad So we hide it. We don't want to talk about it. We don't talk about our feelings. We talk about emotional intelligence and everybody ducks because I don't really want to talk about that. But actually, if we start to say actually, I'm feeling like this. If we were in a room where you all said who here feels not really good enough compared to everybody else. If we all put our hands up and went, honestly, if we could get to that stage and everybody could look around and go, actually, we all feel the same way. What we're doing is, we're normalizing this. Okay. Now, there's lots of work to do with, in executives and business owners, we can sit down and work on our hypothesis and go really deep. But as a first stage, we have to normalize it. We have to say it's highly likely every single one of us in this room, because it's at least 70 percent of people that are admitting it. So likely that every single one of them in this room isn't feeling worthy of something. Okay. If we were to just do one thing in, and that is just to go, that's normal. Everybody admit it now. So next time you're in one of your meetings or one of our meetings, yeah. And we've got 20 business owners around the room and we said, we're going to normalize something. Hands up here. Who's ever felt not worthy of the business or not worthy of being in this room or not worthy of, making the money or whatever. Hands up. Let's have a look. Let's allow ourselves to talk about the normality of a piece of. an almond sized piece of our brain, driving our sense of threat to us and telling us what's a threat.

IAN: Julie, this talking about normalize really interesting. So I'm going to come on to a situation that happened yesterday with 18 of our clients, all in one room together. Is this where the individual wants it, but they don't believe that they're either worthy of it or that, or how to get it.

JULIE: It could be it's not the how to get it because the how is just a doing thing.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: So you could say to me, Julie, if you want to make a million pounds in your business, all you've got to do is, go out there and market your stuff. Tell people that you're there, have some good stuff. Make an offer show him the thing and then deliver and you'll be a millionaire and I'll go that sounds completely normal I'll do that. Yeah, but it's all that other stuff that's holding them back about. Oh, yeah, but what if I look a fool? What if I don't get that? I don't think I can get that Oh, no, that's only applies to other people all of that stuff is the imposter syndrome part. So it's the bit in between the that we're like, oh yeah, but I can't do that. So it's, when you think that you've just told your clients, or just do the thing that, you know, one of your thing, and then they will come back and go, they didn't do it. And you're like why didn't you do it? That was pretty obvious. It's probably because of something here. That's told them that they can't.

IAN: And I think this normalizing bit is the key thing for me. We, as I say, we had this yesterday one of our sessions, eight week lumps, that'd be about 19 MSPs in the room and Stuart was holding a session. And we were all talking about, how do you feeling your business? And some people were excited and there was one guy who said, sparring out of control and they all laughed. And once they'd finished and I was just listening and listening. And once they'd finished, I just said, guys, And girls, congratulations on being so open in this place because some of you have just bared your soul that you never would do in another environment. Yeah. What they actually did to you is exactly what you just said. They've just normalized it. They've laughed about it. They've joked about it. And then I said how can we help you? And what do we need to do? And there was one client there who's going my team don't do this. They don't do that. They don't believe in the vision, the values. They don't believe in this and one thing and another. And the day was structured around, fixing and masterminding in the evening, which is that, the hardest thing to do in any, group of MSPs is to structure a mastermind, as to help them to overcome these things, because you could quite easily sit in a group and go yeah. Just do that guys. All you got to do is go and watch that video, do it. And away you go.

JULIE: Give him a sheet of paper with a list of things to do.

IAN I've done it and he's done it and she's done it and they've done it. So just do it. And they're sitting there going, I'm standing still waiting for the tiger to run past. Don't see me. Don't see me. Next month, what happens? They come back. How'd you get on? I've been a bit busy, actually, and then all the excuses under the sun come out. But we know that particular building block in the foundations of growing your MSP is going to be the key one.

JULIE: So they've considered it a threat. They have then either distracted themselves or stayed in a place of safety or held control so they don't let go or waited for somebody to tell him it's all right to do and all these different strategies they might be using. Because of how they feel, not because of what they know or what they should be doing. And so when I talk about normal it's imposter syndrome in its purest form is going to take a bit of effort because you've got some of the reasons of why do I feel like this? Okay. So we're not going to do that today, but I think in business, especially in groups like, the MSP growth hub, we have to be better emotionally intelligent to understand that this is a thing Okay. And the thing is okay. And the thing is normal because we all have our there's, I think there's one on either side, so we've got these amygdala that are running. Is it a threat? Is it not? And if you have had an experience that made that thing a threat, like public speaking or needing, or being rejected. Yeah. As in I'm rejected from the group. Any of those things will impact on your decision making and your behavior. In your business, so understanding that's a thing initially is amazing because it's like a light bulb going off oh, I don't even have to have fixed it, Ian, yet.

IAN: Just to go identify it.

JULIE: Identifying it and going oh, so what you're telling me is I'm not just a failure here. I'm not just really rubbish, and I can't do it and I could never do it. What you're telling me is actually this is a normal human behavior because my brain is telling me that's a threat. Yes. Oh. Oh. So immediately, if I know that's what's happening, Then I can, I can't fix what, why that is at the moment. Yeah. At least I'm seeing that. Okay, so it isn't that I just could never do this. It's actually that something in my brain is telling me that's going to be dangerous for you. And the minute that you understand that, it's almost like in, if you were, like, if you and me were sitting there and we come out of ourselves and we're looking in on ourselves and saying, what are they doing at the moment? What's going on for them at the moment, you're looking in, so you're dissociated from it You're able to. Just look and go. It's like watching yourself on TV. You'd be like,

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: Oh, look at that. You can see Bob is avoiding that because Bob feels unsafe with that. You can see, look at him. He's going a bit red and he's getting a bit frustrated. He doesn't want to answer the question there because that's making him uncomfortable. Yeah. And look at that. Ian is just telling him what to do. And we have to acknowledge, look, hey, hang on. You look a bit uncomfortable. Yeah. It's probably something that you, your brain is considering a threat. Let's just open it up and make it less of a threat and maybe just change the way we are looking at things and we can start to, to make it more comfortable for people. And the way we make it comfortable, I think, in my opinion initially is by doing what you did yesterday, which is having a group of people who we prove this is normal because we're all feeling the same way. Do you see what I mean? So you can, you make things more comfortable by being open and saying, hang on a minute, I feel really uncomfortable about this. Can I just take a minute? Can I just breathe a second?

IAN: Take stock.

JULIE: Take stock. And what we know, I talked about fight, flight, or freeze. That's our nervous system going into overdrive. So we, the initial thing we need to do is to bring that down. And One of those things that you're doing is talking about it. That is bringing down the energy, bringing down that Oh, my God, I'm the only one and I'm in panic mode. Let's say, yeah. So talking about it, shaking out our energy, doing things that calm our biology. That's one of the phrases we use. If we can calm that, then we can see better. We can then be more, more okay, I can see what's going on, but we have to calm that biology. So by talking about it, by making it normal, by having these conversations, we're calming our biology a little bit by making it much more open to say, all right, I don't need to panic. It's just a thing. I know it's a thing. I do have to deal with it. It's a thing.

IAN: So the golden question. for people, who may not have access to a community of people and, to help and support with that for the MSP sitting here. And he might've identified that he needs to deal with an issue with his team. He needs to deal with an issue with his profitability. It might be his sales and marketing. He's got to do one of these horrible, ugly things of working on the business things that these techies do not like.

JULIE: They'll think he's a threat.

IAN: You identified it. I'm working on my own. I'm sitting here listening to this podcast. What's the next step to help them overcome or to move forward?

JULIE: What we know about imposter syndrome, I said it at the very start, which is it only happens at certain times. And it happens where the challenge is high and the support is low.

IAN: Okay.

JULIE: So we can deal with it in like your average kind of circumstance, yeah? Doesn't rear itself in your head, the whole like panic zone. So if challenge is high and support is low. So you just said, oh, when I've got to do a thing that I don't like or is a high challenge and I have low support. So the very first thing we can do is say, either, the easy one is reduce the challenge, which is perhaps don't do it, that's, but the better thing to do, because that's not going to help you the better thing to do. Is to bring up the support level for it. Recognize I'm in a high challenge, low support area. And this is something that's a challenge for me. I'm not really supporting myself or I don't have support around me. So you've got to bring that balance up of I don't want to have the panic moment or the imposter syndrome experience, let's call it. Yeah. The first thing is right. I need to remove one of the conditions for it to rear its ugly head, and one of that conditions is high challenge, low support. So the very first thing to do, calm my biology, shake it out, talk about it, make it normal. Then, how do I increase the support for this thing that's causing me the problem? For example, you just said that I've got to deal with something with my team. Don't sit there on your own and just try and power through that. Talk to somebody, get support for it. Yeah,

IAN: So get some information, get some help.

JULIE: Either get information, watch a video if you're not, if you're a member of the MSP Growth Hub, there's loads and loads of resources for that. You can come and talk to me. You can come and talk to you. For example, I know that the incident that you're talking about yesterday, Stuart said a word to me and said okay. This person needs some support around this. Let's do that. So we're, so we've got the challenge. We can't fix the whole underlying thing behind it because that's a bit more work, but we can improve the support around it. So that person feels more supported, has some objectivity and isn't feeling like my God, the line is coming because I'm all alone. Yeah. And so my view, the very first thing you should do is get the support for high challenge experiences that are happening for you.

IAN: At least understand and go into, groups advice, now with AI and I'm going to say it because my son called me out at the weekend and he said to me, I said, oh, I need to know how to do this. And he goes, He says, just chat-GPT. I said, Jake, I'm not chat-GPTing. It was a technical thing with a system I'm trying to build at home and I'm not doing it. Google will find it for me. He said, dad, just chat GPT. I went, anyway, so I went in the next room, sat in the corner on my own quietly with my head to the wall and I chat-GPTed it. And it only bloody come up with exactly the solution that I wanted in number one with the problem that I had, but I didn't know what it was. Whether you're using AI, whether you're using. Another resource, whether you go into the tech tribe, whether you go into any of these other communities, the support in this channel is unbelievable. If you're listening to this podcast and you're not part of a community, get one, I don't tell you, don't tell people to do stuff much often, but go and get in the community because they are incredible. There are lots of different communities out there and that will help to raise that level of support. And also, yes. normalize that challenge as well.

JULIE: That's calming the biology around it. So it you might still have the challenge.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: One, you can acknowledge that this is a challenge for you. It doesn't have to be a challenge forever.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah. All right. Okay. It is normal to feel like this. Yeah, that's normalized. Okay, so immediately the challenge might go down an inch or two, let's say, I'm going to bring up my support. I also have some emotional support now because I've talked to people about the fact that I feel like I've gotten around this. And so even if I haven't dealt with the whole, like, why is it happening? I'm in a much, much better place. So when I say normalize it, because then I'm more likely to talk about it. I'm more likely to ask for help. I'm more likely to get the support for the challenge that I'm feeling yeah. And then it's like an A plus B, plus C. Yeah. It's this is the trigger activity. I don't know. Sending out marketing emails is my trigger imposter activity. Let's say, yeah. And then my belief is I'm not as good as everybody else. I'm not worthy. Yeah. And the situation, the C is circumstances. I have high challenge, low support. So if you take one of those away, you're going to remove imposter syndrome.

Yeah, so you're going to be able to move forward. So you remove that by bringing in that support you've just said, by normalizing it, by, and then by getting people around you. And so you don't even have to deal with it.

IAN: It's wonderful. And isn't it so fascinating that, it all starts off with Stuart, the caveman. And even, and this isn't it as such, but, after a trauma, therapy, you've got a challenge. You think that this is what's going on and you've got a low level of support. I'm on my own. What can I do about this, you in panic, you go into stress, you get into overwhelm and you can like now start to rotate this around to all areas of life. Can't you about children, I've got to be like this. I've got to be like that, but no, but my parents aren't giving me a, my dad said to me back in the early days when I thought about setting up my first business, he said. Website? You don't need a website Jake, that'll cost you a fortune. Of course, my dad was an amazing marketeer. Not. He was an amazing businessman. Not, so I had to listen to him. Not. And I did. And I didn't for long because I was actually in a support group, a peer group of other entrepreneurs who were in the coaching area. And we all said, this is, normalizing, getting that support. I wanted to be the, I wanted to be the smallest guy in the room. Do you know what I mean?

JULIE: And what you just said, that's really interesting because. What's happening is we are listening to things in our mind from experiences that happened when we were probably about four.

IAN: Absolutely.

JULIE: And it's are you, do we really, if we were to logically that part, it's do you actually really want to listen to your 4-year-old self or do you want to listen to your dad, or the, that doesn't even know what an MSP is or, there's all sorts of things that we learn as kids, whether we learn 'em from our mates, our teachers, our parents, things that happen to us. They're not even a thing, but it's got lodged in your brain about what you can or can't do. And that's what's driving our behavior. Because it thinks it's a threat and it's if we could remove that completely, we just talked to her about what can we do now, but if we could remove that completely and go, hey, amygdala, that isn't actually a threat, by the way, just so you know, that was my dad having a bit of a silly time. And then your amygdala went, oh, that would remove it completely.

IAN: And isn't it, we need to stop, right? But we could talk about this all day, as you said, because, and how many times have we sat there at a conference or a film or somewhere and you felt inspired, you felt motivated, you felt energized by what someone's told you in the story that they had, that's been a rag to riches story. They grew up in a slum and they now live in this. Why is that? Something's happened in that air in that time. where they haven't carried on with those limiting beliefs and all of that kind of stuff. Oh, Julie, bringing this to a summary, I just, you've just nailed it in that last part about the challenge and the support, if you're feeling like this, I'm going to come to you for your view in a minute. But if you're feeling like this, have a look at how can you normalize that challenge and shake it off. I love that whole shake it off idea. And what's the right support for you at the right time? I don't think, I think that's a mic drop moment. Anything to add, Julie, before we close?

JULIE: I just think, just remember everybody. You are one of at least 70% who will experience feeling not good enough, and not capable at any one time. Okay? And it is something that it is absolutely normal. And if you can allow yourself to talk to us, someone, anyone, yeah. And get yourself that. support for that challenge, then great. If you have wider issues, then maybe you want to deal with some of those bits about what your agency is telling you. That's a bit bigger, but do you know what? You're halfway there if you just give the support, get the support for the things that you're trying to achieve.

IAN: There we go. fantastic Julie, that was amazing. Thank you very much. I love tapping into your brain. We've got some great other podcasts coming up, which are on a similar vein, just to help you get out of that comfort zone, take action when you think you shouldn't be taking action. So hopefully this has been a super helpful Episode with loads of information there to help you drive this one forward. If you want to continue the conversation with either myself or Stuart, you can find us on LinkedIn, our profiles will be in the show notes as usual. Julie nailed it. Thank you very much. Loving what we're doing here at the growth hub and helping everybody together. And I'll look forward to catching up with you soon. Take care. See you soon.

OUTRO: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, just before you go. And if you're curious about how this episode links with the ability to scale your MSP to a million or, or if you're already there, accelerate to five, then we want to invite you to come and take the MSP mastery quiz. And in just three minutes, you're going to get a 360 degree scan of your business where you can identify the one or two tactics that can help you find more time engaging along your people and help generate more leads in your MSP. It's really simple. Just click on the link in the show notes. And if you have enjoyed this episode, we'd love to get some feedback from you by means of a rating review on Spotify your podcast platform of choice. We really appreciate every single one of them. Now you can go and enjoy the rest of your day and we look forward to catching up and connecting with you soon. All the best.