EP241 – How to Engage the Un-Engaged
with Julie Hutchison & Ian Luckett

IAN: In this episode of the IT Experts podcast, we help you work out how to engage the unengaged.

INTRO: Welcome to the IT Experts podcast, the only podcast to help MSPs scale to 1 million, and if already there, get to five and go faster at the end of the day. Isn't it all about building a business that works for you rather than you for it? I hope you enjoy the show.

In this episode of the IT Experts Podcast, we are going to help you to work out that if you want A players in your business, you cannot be a B player yourself as a leader. Now what this means is that throughout this show you are going to get a couple of punches in the guts from Julie. So be careful, but this is an incredible show coming up. You're going to absolutely love it.

IAN: So good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to the IT Experts podcast. Today we've got a really special show. We always have a special show for you because we have Julie Hutchison back in the podcast lounge again this morning. Get your words out, Ian. Good morning, Julie. How you doing?

JULIE: Hello. I'm very good. Thank you.

IAN: Fantastic. So today we are going to be referring back a little bit to a podcast. We recently spoke about talking about your A Players, but we're not going to talk about A player. We are going to talk a little bit about A players today, but we're going to talk about the B and the C players and how to help unengaged employees to become engaged and useful and efficient and develop and grow within your business. But before we do Julie, if people were living under a rock recently and haven't been listened to many of the IT experts podcast, who are you, what'd you do, who'd you help, why are we talking today?

JULIE: Who knows? No. Julie Hutchison here. I'm leadership and team performance specialist. So I'm helping your MSP clients to grow their soft skills, their leadership skills, and so that they can create team performance really and be more profitable, more productive.

IAN: Fantastic. Fantastic. Love it. Love it. So if you want to listen to anything to do with helping your team perform, helping your employees get more out of your employees, Julie's podcast are the ones to check out. Go and have a look at the ones that we've got on, difficult conversations, building your team, building great A Players, loads and loads of subjects in there. But today we're going to refer back to a podcast that we did a little while ago, all about A Players now. I guess let's just go straight in Julie. What is an A player a bit of a quick overview. What's an A player and why do we need them in the business?

JULIE: Yeah. We want people to do the things that need to be done in the business. And when people refer to A players, B players and C players, A player is somebody who is engaged, who is driving the business. And we talked the other day, our intensive about whether somebody is, like a backseat passenger or even luggage in your business. You're dragging them along with you and you want somebody who's going to help you drive the business. So an A player is engaged, they can do it, they want to do it, they're there, they're doing it. They've probably done it before you've even thought about it. That's the sort of person you want in your business. And we all want loads of those.

IAN: And when we go through the frameworks we talk about the A players, which Julie has just explained them, we have the B players, which are what we would call back in the day. I'm not sure you're allowed to say this, they're a good egg. They come in and they do what they say on the tin, and they're a solid member of staff.

JULIE: Yeah.

IAN: And then you've got the C players who are probably one step close, closer to the door with your foot behind it if they're not careful. A players didn't just, be born amazing people. They've been developed and coached and they've grown and they've, learned themselves, and they've, it's not just a one way thing. This is a kind of a two-way thing. They're great and you need them in your business and you don't want to have all A players, otherwise you could end up with a bit of a challenge on those sort of things. But what we're going to talk about today is how do we help nurture and develop the bees in the C plays who are unengaged to become A, the Cs become Bs and B because should have used numbers, the Bs to become A's did I get that right? I think I did...

JULIE: You did? And I'm, and I could, completely upset the apricot by saying that I actually don't believe that there is such a thing as an A player per se. You said they need developing. And they've, or they've been developing and I think that, this whole like, who is this person is the wrong thing we should be looking at, is much more about what do we as leaders need to do to create an environment where somebody performs as.

IAN: Yeah. And it is that environment, isn't it? Because if we talk a lot about the shadow of the leader, which is your persona and your behavior and your attitude and your language and everything within the organization. If you run around in your chaotic and unorganized and messy and then your business is going to be like that. So have a little old look in the mirror this morning as you are getting up and brushing your teeth and looking at yourself. And Julie's famous phrase is. If you were watching yourself on TV, what would you be watching? We'll leave that one out there with you. But with the A players, they've turned out they've got themselves into that position because they've either developed or you've developed them. You've got them into that environment where they've grown. But everybody's different, right? Everybody's wired differently, and not everybody's going to respond to that environment support, care, attention, mentoring, coaching, whatever it might be as the next person. Are they?

JULIE: No. And what I think we need to look at is for every single person, if they're not performing or they're not performing how you want to, or they're not just giving you the, the things that you want to do. The question you should be asking is not who they are, as in they are, or they are not an A player. The question we should be asking is, one of three things, is it that they can't do it?

IAN: Yep.

JULIE: Is it that they won't do it, or is it that they, as I normally say, darn don't do it. I'll explain what I mean. Can't do it – is essentially they either do not have the skill or they do not have the confidence, to make good decisions. because what we want are people who can make good decisions in a business. I said to drive that business is they know what the good decisions would be. So they either can't because they don't have the skill or they can't, because in their head they don't know how to make those good decisions. They don't have the confidence to make those good decisions.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. That's number one. Won't do is, Ian, I won't do it for you. Okay. It's a totally different thing. It's like even though I could. I won't because I don't like the environment or I don't like you, or I don't like my team members. Okay. So there's a relationship issue that we need to understand because people are human.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: And even if I could, I don't because something's going on in my head that I don't appreciate. Yeah. And then the last one, the darn don't do is even though I do the people, I get on well with the people and I can do it, I still seem to do my own thing or do or not really do go where you want me to go. And the reason is because either you haven't told them or they don't agree. Okay. And what I mean is that if you said to me right now, oh, we're going on holiday, for example, my first question to you, Ian, would be where are we going? Where are we're going? What we doing? And so if I don't know where I'm going, I don't know what to pack, I don't know whether I need my bikini or my sweet, my swimsuit or my ski suit. Because I don't know where I'm going. I can't get on board with the idea. If I don't know where it's, so the last one is don't do, which is about the think of D for Direction. Yeah. Don't do, because I don't know, or I don't want to go in the direction that you want to go in. Yeah. Okay. And what that means is that good employees, theoretical, good employees go rogue and do their own thing. Yeah. And so what you've got is these three different reasons why people aren't performing and so when you look at that, you think, oh I can actually do something about that. And this is where, like I said, I disagree with this sort of oh, it's an A player. Because you could say the reason why Jillian isn't doing this is because she's got issues with Ian and that needs resolving. And she's not got the confidence to make good decisions because she's never had that, she's never been coached, she's never knows what to do. So if you, as the leader said I'm going to make sure that I have better relationship with her and I'm going to coach her to be more in, more comfortable with making decisions, oh, and I'm going to make sure she knows what direction we're going in, and that she's really on board, that she really thinks that's a great idea.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: Then she's going to be like, do you know what, actually, I like working here. I'm more comfortable, I'm more confident and I know exactly what Ian wants. I know how to make that work so suddenly I can be a driver in the business. I can now and I can feel like I want to get involved. I can feel like I want to be that A player, because now I'm bought into all of this and I'm bought into the people and I'm bought into what I'm trying to do. So it changes me from this sort of I'm just going to come to work and suffer where I am and just get through the day and not do something then to somebody who's really pushing things and going if I know where I'm going, then I'm going to help you get there. I've got some ideas on that. Hey, how, why don't we do this? Or, why don't we do that? So they become more engaged. They become more excited and interested in what you're doing. And that's the bit that makes the difference.

IAN: So how does this then show up? Because obviously you're going to have some team members who are going to be self-motivated and they're going to be very driven and they're going to be the ones saying, Hey, where are we going? What are we doing? And all this kind of stuff. Yeah. And then you've got other team members that are going to, be on a sliding scales to the ones who just come in, press a few buttons, go home and get paid. And that's it. But this great this analysis tool of hang on a minute. Is it because you can't do it because you won't do it? Or because you yeah, because we don't do it. Is this something that as MSP leaders, we need to be that we have in the toolbox and we pull it out? Or is this something that we need to change our behavior as a leader so that we can then sprinkle these tools on when we need them, thing. Do you know what I mean? Is it a thing we need to do to react or is it a thing that we need to do, as a standard?

JULIE: If you think about the best case scenario would be that you knew that as part of standard behavior, do you understand that you are the start from the beginning? Can't change from, can't do to, can do. So that is make sure everybody's got the skills and make sure everybody's got the confidence. So I need to show up as coach. I need to make sure they've got the skills. The middle one we go from won't do to want to will do. Yeah. Yeah. Then well, will I need to make sure that I build relationships and that is part of the way I show up. Let's say, my impact and all those things. So that should be standard. And the last one, that they darn well don't do is oh, I want them to do it. Yeah. And I want them to get on board. So again, standard procedure would be that I tell people where I'm trying to go. Yeah. So that, from that point of view that should be something that we create as our impact and our guidance through how we want people to work and how we want them to get on board with this. However, if we did that really well, we probably have less problems, let's say. Yeah. But let's say we didn't do that well, and there's some things that missing, and that's when we have to react because suddenly we'll go back to Jillian, Jillian doesn't look very interested in what she's doing, and she's just getting on with the stuff and she's not changed that thing that we, we hoped she had. And it's because Jillian didn't know that was important to you. That's now my problem because. I thought I'd done all those things upfront that you were talking about proactively, but suddenly I see with Jillian, I haven't quite got there. So there could be a difference between, like generally I'm pretty good at telling people where we're going. Let's say. Yeah. Yeah. But with don't know, why Jillian's come to my frame now. But with Jillian, she hasn't gone. Yeah, she hasn't got it. Yeah. And so I need to use this as a tool, as you say, and we have a tool specifically for this to look at, like what's generally do I have, but also for Jillian, for Bob, for Ian, where are we at with all of these things? So we use a matrix where we go through this and say okay, here's my team listing all my people and going through. Like how well are they performing? Are they performing? Top tip top? Yeah, that's fantastic. We don't need to worry about that. But we also need to understand how did they get there, which is probably through this, but if not, okay, what's missing? Actually, no, let's go for Bob this time. Bob doesn't like Ian, so that's or won't do thing. Yeah. So let's focus on that. So it gives us a point of reference of what to do differently or how to show up differently. As a whole, but also for each person in your business. And if you can start doing that, you can pinpoint the exact thing that is stopping them from being engaged. I was going to say an A player, but I, I fight back on a players, but engaged and capable and excited in your business because if you can create that, they know what they're doing, they're excited to do it, and they want to do it with you, then they will all be a players, you'll have an amazing group of people who are really tuned into what you're trying to achieve.

IAN: So as you mentioned we've already got the frameworks that we go into detail. We haven't got time to go into all of that detail today, but when does a leader when does this pop up? Does this pop up when you are getting resistance against change? Or you are like trying to get someone to do something and they don't do it, or you're trying to develop someone and you're going, hang on a minute, this is, this should be this is hard, yeah. This is getting hard. Is this how it shows up?

JULIE: Yeah. I won't name names, but I'll give you an example of how we've been using it recently. Somebody said, in fact, they said it at the intensive again, it's I thought I'd asked them to do something, but what clearly what they thought I had asked them to do wasn't the same as what. What they were doing because I was surprised by what they actually did. It was completely different. It cost them a lot of money. And that person we actually went through and said, look, what's going on? Said, I, my team are rubbish, that wasn't the word he used. But he said rubbish. And I don't like people this isn't working. And I'm really frustrated because I've got, I'm paying people a whole load of money and they're not doing what I want.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: And you get people saying it, it's oh, my team are rubbish. And it's hang on a second. Because people use this A, B, and C. They go, oh, it's full of C players. They don't want to be here. It's how did they get there then? Yeah, because most people we know don't come to work to do a bad job, right? They might do a bad job, but they don't come to work to do a bad job. So what we had him do, for example, was to say, stop for a second. Stop slating your employees and let's look a little bit more empathetically about what's going on for them and what your role within that is. And he went through each one and went, oh, look at that, yeah. And he went through each, he was like, alright there is a theme, and if you find whilst you're doing this, if you find a theme, I said, you can do it generally, or specifically. What might happen is for every single employee, they, you say, oh dear, they don't know what we're trying to achieve in. Oh, that one doesn't know what we're trying to achieve either. And that one doesn't. Then there's a theme. But that's the general but that's where this person was because he genuinely was like, I didn't realize the impact that I was having, because I haven't really showed them what I want. I haven't showed them where we are trying to go, and I haven't really engaged them enough, so they're not, they're just coming up and pressing the buttons and if I'm not absolutely specific about the exact thing I want, then they probably won't do it. So in order to get over that, we need to help them understand where are we trying to go to? Because then they make the good decision. Yeah. They don't wait for you to go do the thing. They can start going, I think the thing would be this, and then they get on with it. Yeah. And they become more confident, they become more engaged and they care. So they have ideas and they come and be excited. And so what he recognized was there were things that he needed to change in him in the way he was showing up. That meant that they changed the way they show up. And that's how you use the tool.

IAN: And we hear that, I'm not sure it's every day, is it? But it's certainly every week, isn't it? We will hear an MSP say, my team is rubbish, or this person's rubbish because they're not doing this.

JULIE: I need to get rid of X, Y and Z or whatever it is. Yeah.

IAN: I need to get rid of them because they're not doing this properly. I start off talking about an expectation exchange, whereas I say if I come into your business and I ask them what it was that they want that you wanted them to do, would they tell me the same thing that you told them? And it, that response always starts with. Now also means no.

JULIE: Exactly. It's did they really know what you wanted? Did they really know what good looks like? Did they really understand it? And were you communicating that really so that they wanted to do that as well? Yeah. All those things, if you really dig down, it's like, maybe I didn't say that. Ooh, I hope for the best or, I wasn't very explanatory. So what we're saying is that A players don't, they're not unicorns. But they feel like unicorns because we think that they are A players, but it's how do we make people grow into that? How do we get people to engage and drive, help drive our business? It's by things that we do about, we know about ourselves and that we change about ourselves because it's the impact that we're having on those people.

IAN: And this is something that's just popped into my head here is that, and this is going to be a bit of a statement, it could go on, but Yeah, no, you're going, oh God, now there's a pretty good chance, more chance than not that an A player in your MSP right now, if you haven't adopted some of, standard leadership approaches and team building and team engagement and things like that. If you haven't really actively done a lot of the things that, the principles that we talk about , and that are around leadership development, that they, that A players got there on their own and you haven't, it's not with what you've done. So this, what I'm trying to say is this is really special source right now to turn the C's into B's and the B's into A's, because the A's you've already got, have probably always been very motivated, very inquisitive and all that

JULIE: They naturally like it, yeah.

IAN: That's right. Yeah. So don't just say, oh, because I've got myself some A players, you are the most amazing leader in the organization. And I think that's something that just popped up to go, this is possibly not exactly all the time possibly happened by accident. And this is a deliberate act now, isn't it?

JULIE: Yes. So imagine this, you spend a huge amount of cash buying in your A players. Only for your A players to realize that you are a B player. Oh, what I mean is...

IAN: Straight back at me.

JULIE: Ouch. You are a B leader, okay? You are not looking at yourself and saying. Is it can't do or won't do or don't do, is this something I need to do to help them to achieve? Because if you've bought in a natural A players, somebody who's a little bit easier to get to, and while they're very excited about stuff, what happens if you still don't tell them about where you're trying to get to? What happens if you still don't really think about how to communicate with them and how to engage them? What happens if you still don't coach them and , grow them in the way they want to be grown? Because two things will happen is if you don't do that with them, they will either leave because they see through you and you'll B player this or they will stop being an A player. Yeah. Because they will lose interest because there is no like energy, there is no excitement. And they'll start thinking, what's the point of this then? Because we're not really going very far. Buying in all these, oh, I need an A player. It's okay. It's you create or keep A players, you create people who are engaged or disengaged. So don't be a B leader if you want A players.

IAN: And that's the mic drop isn't,

JULIE: isn't it?

IAN: That's it. End of the show. I'm not sure there's anything else we can add. Thanks Julie. See you next week.

JULIE: I want to show, tell you all that's for anyone listening to this, apologies. Clearly you're all fabulous, but we've got to be aware of our own self, haven't we? We've got to be aware of am I being a B leader or an A leader? If I'm asking for A players, if I want people to perform in my business, then I need to perform.

IAN: Exactly that. Exactly that. Julie, that was absolutely brilliant. And as we promised each and every one of us has got a good punch in the guts there, right at the last knock in. Absolutely great show. Short, sharp to the point, some real impactful things there to help you, not only scale and grow your MSP, but become an amazing leader and to build an amazing high performance team. One thing I will just say is keep an eye out on the MSPGrowthhub.com website slash events because we've got various events coming up where we will be running through these frameworks with you as a workshop function. Absolutely incredible, powerful, super valuable. So go and check that out as well. But for this one here, Julie, what's your kind of final summary takeaways?

JULIE: So in summary is that we can create people that are engaged in our business and we need to take responsibility for that. And we need to look at how am I showing up and ask ourself the question to give ourself a tool to do it, which is, can't do, won't do, or darn well, don't do. And then when you have the answer to that, look at what you need to change or grow into to make that can do, wants to and will do. And remember, A Players won't work for a B Leader.

IAN: Amazing, lovely. Thank you Julie. As always, super appreciate your time. Go and absorb that show if anybody's got any questions. Want to learn any more further skills around developing your people, you know where we are, you know how to get a hold of us. Enjoy the rest of your day and look forward to catching up with you soon. Take care now. See you soon.

JULIE: Bye everyone.

OUTRO: Hang on a minute, just before you go, and if you're curious about how this episode links with the ability to scale your MSP to a million or, or if you are already there, accelerate to five, then we want to invite you to come and take the MSP Mastery quiz. And in just three minutes, you're going to get a 360 degrees scan of your business where you can identify the one or two tactics that engage in, align your people and help generate more leads in your MSP. It's really simple. Just click on the link in the show notes. And if you have enjoyed this episode, we'd love to get some feedback from you by means of a rating review on Spotify or iTunes, or your podcast platform of choice. We really appreciate every single one of them. Now, you can go and enjoy the rest of your day, and we look forward to catching up and connecting with you soon. All the.