EP263 - From Cash Flow Chaos to Clarity with Heather Macdonald-Alford and Ian Luckett

IAN: In this episode of The IT Experts Podcast, this is going to be the only no BS version about why you need to focus on your numbers and your finances in your MSP.

INTRO: Welcome to The IT Experts Podcast, the only podcast to help MSPs scale to 1 million, and if already there, get to five and go faster. At the end of the day, isn't it all about building a business that works for you rather than you for it? I hope you enjoy the show.

IAN: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to The IT Experts Podcast, third time Lucky. We're going to be talking to you today about going from cashflow, chaos to absolute clarity with a No BS podcast, with the amazing Heather MacDonald Alford. How are you doing today, Heather? You all right?

HEATHER: Yep. Not bad. Thank you. You?

IAN: Excellent? Yes, we're all good. Thank you. Finance can be a dry subject, numbers can be a dry subject. We all go on about it all the time. And today we're happy at the minute because it's the morning of the budget and I'm sure this afternoon we'll all be crying in our tea. But anyway, it is what it is. And then maybe we can touch on that a little bit as well, Heather so, got Heather on the podcast today because yes, it's not the most exciting subject finance, but we are going to be, we're going to be giving you a bit of a, maybe a little bit of a clip round the ear and a jab in the ribs and a punch in the guts about why you really need to focus. And I couldn't think of anybody in the channel better than to do this than Heather. No. For those who know Heather, well, you'll get to know Heather by the end of this episode. But for those who don't know you, Heather who are you, what'd you do and who's your help?

HEATHER: So I am the Director of Counting Creators, which is a virtual finance department to MSPs. And we look after them from their mailbox right up to their end of year accounts and everything in between to help them make the right decisions for the business.

IAN: Great stuff. That's brilliant. Thank you very much for that. And as you may know, if you've met Heather before, if you thought I had some energy then she's my coach. Right. And we have no idea how the language is going to go in this show. So just like, buckle up, put your seatbelts on and get ready for the ride.

HEATHER: Buckle a lot. Brilliant.

IAN: Yes. You know, just get ready for this one.

HEATHER: Don't be offended.

IAN: I think they know that by now. So look, MSPs, most of them, they don't have a finance problem, do they? They have kind of like data issues, there's a lot of people shy away from their numbers. They don't want to look at their numbers. They look at their bank balance. And they think that's the profitability of the business. But we're going to be sharing with you today some, some really important insights, actually, that's what this show is about, is the insights that Heather's got working with MSPs and their finances, that when you do this, this is kind of what you get. From a finance point of view, Heather, what's the landscape looking like for MSPs, you know, at the moment, you know, back end of 2025?

HEATHER: I would say that we're still facing the same old problems. It's the same narrative that comes up continuously. And therefore, the lessons maybe aren't always learned or listened to. Now a lot of MSPs go out and tell the conferences and sit in all the rooms and they sit there with the great big ideas and think, Brian, I'm going to go back and action this. And then they get distracted by being super busy and their, in their business that they don't action them and therefore they end up in now a very similar place, which is not making enough money or not making any money in some cases. So, that's essentially now what we see a lot are really, really busy, capable. Now people who just want to have really decent businesses, but they're just working too much for not enough money.

IAN: And it's absolutely, true because you know, as we know, many MSPs. You know, kind of grew up from the technical world and asking for money and charging for money and knowing your value can be really scary. Right. You know, actually been in this sales process. I hate sales, I hate marketing. It's not my happy place. I just want to press some buttons and fix some tech and it's kind of all of that place. But we talk all the time in the Growth Hub and we, you know, we say, alright, if people who are involved in our world and your world. You are in a great place. Okay? Because you've got the support. They're going to help you understand why this is so important. But we talk about knowing your numbers, you've got to know your numbers. And I want to dive into some of the blind spots that people can, you know, you know, overcome when they start to know their numbers. So, when, if I say to you, Heather, you're an MSP and you need to know your numbers, or you sort of saying to an MSP, you need to know your numbers. What do you actually mean? What does that kind of breakdown to in kind of reality?

HEATHER: So it may in like even just the basics, are you making money on the services that you're providing and you're not propping your business up by projects? Now, I'll often see MSPs, and they thought, oh, we're doing good. We're doing good money. We're doing all right. Well, actually, we step a look and go, not really, because you're not washing your face in your business because you've got so much projects out there. And it's lovely that you, that's coming in and a great example would be this, the windows 10. Now there's a lot of businesses who had an influx of all these hardware purchases, but, and they, that's kind of distorted, I would say. The revenue and therefore they think that they have a great year and they are having a great year, but that year will not be next year.

IAN: Yeah.

HEATHER: Because that now that flipping that dog has been flogged. So that's something that now people need to get the real clarity on like what's going on with their services, what's going on with their projects, get your mix right and make sure that essentially your service is covering your overhead as well, and that your project is the cream on the top. That's nice. So, yeah, sorry, what was the question?

IAN: No, that was, no, that, that was, that was kind of it really about knowing the numbers and some of the metrics. We did a round table yesterday talking about M&A and I'm sure we'll touch on that today about that transferable value that we're talking a lot to our clients about at the moment. As you know, running an MSP is great and I was talking to an MSP probably about six weeks ago and it was an intro call, just getting to know what we were doing and stuff, and he said, I've Got no, intention on selling this business. And I said I said in my head, bless you. And I said, by the way whether you like it or not, one day or another, you will sell that business and you're either going to be happy or you are going to be not so happy. And, but you've got a decision right now to make some changes in that business over the next two to three years to build that value in, by the way, it all starts with knowing your numbers. And anyway, a week later he was in the office doing his growth planning session, being onboarded which was amazing, right? Because he suddenly went, oh my God, you know you're absolutely right. We're going to sell this business. But, you know, and yesterday on the round table, we were talking about Darren Strong mentioned, you've got to know profitability, not by client, but by service, which is exactly what you said. And it's like, why is that important? What's the, you know? I know it might be a bit obvious to some people, but this is like the first stepping stone into knowing your numbers, isn't it?

HEATHER: Yeah. Well, I think if you don't know what your margins are, you don't know if you're making money on it.

IAN: Yeah.

HEATHER: But B, if you're making enough money on it, and now you're not able to compare it to the others in your industry. And that with the same sentiment, like now we, we hear a lot about now numbers thrown round a room, but also see in the background as you do with other MSPs that not all the same way to analyse the numbers is the same. Now, different groups analyse in different ways. But ultimately if you don't know what's actually making you money, you could be sitting doing something that's not making you anything. And we see that and hear about it and you think sack it off or do something different like, you need to look at the things because at the end of the day, I think I said this at Pax A actually when I was speaking, I says, now you're end up working till whatever age and get paid scrap money. And like your staff are getting paid more than you because you've got a good tar. But you need to get into the details to make from the beginning or as quick as certain you as possible to ensure that you're making the right amount of money for as long as possible.

IAN: Yeah. And it's really key, isn't it? Because every MSP's busy. Every MSP's busy. And we celebrate when our clients sack their clients.

HEATHER: Yes.

IAN: Because they're not making any money. So you might have someone on your service desk or you know, who's burning up time? Burning up time. Oh, they're our biggest customer. Yeah. But are they actually your most profitable customer? Because a lot of the time you can find that customer's so needy because you've kind of teach them how to behave and they've adopted it and they've taken advantage of you, and now your costs have gone up, you haven't put their prices up. And all of a sudden it's burning your service desk and you will actually make more money. You'd take more money home every night. If you didn't do that, how do you, how do you help MSPs to have confidence to sack a client off if they're not making money? Because you must have this conversation quite a bit.

HEATHER: Well, there's two ways actually. Right. One is I'm pretty confident doing it myself. And I think, I think quite a lot of MSPs have taken, I don't know what the word would be, but the encouragement from that. Like, well, God really, like I can do it like not in a hard way, but they're not making you money. So if it's not making you money, what are you doing? You could work less hours. Still make the same because the revenue looks like it's coming in. That's brilliant, but it's, but the time is just destroying you and from the other respect, it's like, I know that about time tracking personally. Obviously I don't do, I can't do it for MSPs. That's not a tool I offer. But now I know that if you track your time. And everything that's going in, you will actually then look at what is the profitability on your clients. And then you get to make the decision. And I know and I hear in the ground, like time tracking is a massive bug bearer. Yeah. But just get it done.

IAN: Yeah.

HEATHER: Like once you've done it, it will give you so much information. I know we all know information is power and the power to make the right decision, otherwise you're going to just keep doing the same thing. It's the definition of insanity, right?

IAN: Yeah.

HEATHER: Doing the same thing day in, out, day out, and expecting a different result.

IAN: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love that whole time tracking thing because it's, you know, you ask the question, you, so you're time tracking, well, and if anyone starts off with, well, they might as well just say No. So it starts off with, well, you know. Johnny doesn't want to do it. And it's like, okay so let's go back to an expectation exchange here. I'm going to pay you some money for coming to work and you are going to do some things for me. So that's lovely. Let's say that I need you to track your time. I'm not tracking up on your time. I just had the same conversation with our team, is I want to know where we are most profitable and where we're not, so we can either release and invest that time elsewhere. I was talk listening to somebody yesterday and he said, oh this person said I need to get rid of this individual. And they said, oh, I'm really worried about doing it. And you know, they paid a lot of money and blah, blah, blah. It was effectively like a hundred grand role. And this guy who was presenting said, yeah, but what an opportunity you've got now to say you've just released a hundred thousand pounds profit in your business, where's the best place to invest that? Is it in a new tool or system that's going to help maybe bring in AI or anything like that? What is that going to be doing? So, what tips have you got for people who say, well, they don't like tracking time and, you know, they're quite busy as it is at the minute anyway, you know, which is absolute, and I'll say it bullshit, because they need to, you know, they need to be tracking time because what get, you know, matter what measures and what gets measured, gets done, doesn't it? You know? So important.

HEATHER: Just do it like now I've measured it. My side, my team know I'm not checking up on them. And I think like if your team think that you're checking up on. We've got a cultural issue going on now.

IAN: There's a bigger issue.

HEATHER: Right? Got a problem. My team know I'm not an asshole and it's not the game. Sorry. Sorry.

IAN: Keep going. Just keep going.

HEATHER: They know that I'm not going to check up on them and think, what are you doing? I'm not breathing down their neck. They're all capable adults, but they manage really important relationships. And I need to ensure that they are managing those relationships well based on, and this is now meta in the MSP space. Whatever you're doing, is it done well? If it's done well, it should be done in the time restrictions on which we've planned it. And if it's got, if it's creeping the other direction or even not giving them enough. We need to work out. And that's the thing that now integrity, that's something I would say is higher up, very high up on my list. Like I'm not going to over someone either.

IAN: Yeah.

HEATHER: And I would, I get it, it the MSP is service, you think oh, brilliant. It's slightly different service, isn't it? In that respect, like great. We solved their problems. We've given them other avenues to solve their issues that they're not having to send us. Lots of tickets. Lots of tickets. There's other ways, there's education, right? So I get there's a bit of a difference there as well. But essentially it's ensuring that if you manage the time and people don't choose. And don't want to and push back on you. That's a cultural issue you need to get behind. Are they right? Are they right for your team? Are they right for your business? Should they be on the bus?

IAN: I totally agree. I totally agree. Let's talk about, numbers being a growth lever and not an admin task. And here comes.

HEATHER: Not an admin task.

IAN: Here comes the apology.

HEATHER: Everybody be prepared for this.

IAN: Ian Luckett, once upon a time, presented at a Super Ops event where Heather was in the audience. And I'm surprised I didn't get a chair thrown at me. And I mentioned that at that a bookkeeping was a 10 pound task. And quietly for quite and quite surprisingly quietly, Heather was disgusted and was burning inside for probably two to three years about this, I think, which is why she hasn't been on the podcast. So, Heather, I'd love to apologise and say it's bookkeeping is not a 10 pound task. It's a very important town task. It's probably an 11 or 12. No, it's, you know it is an important feature and a function because it adds to this and it was probably a hang on from a previous presentation. So let's just talk about people see...

HEATHER: Apology accepted.

IAN: Right. Let's move on it out of the way.

STUART INTERRUPT: Hey, just a quick one from me, for everybody that's listening, Stuart here. If you're serious about growing your MSP, but you're not sure what helps right for you, then just grab our ultimate MSP Growth Guide. It's a really simple way to check out what's out there for support that could really help you work. There's no fluff. There's no filler, just facts or alternatively, if you want to meet us face to face and see how we do things up close, come along to one of our events. They're regularly put on, they're all in the links below. Go check 'em out, and now it's back to the show.

IAN: Thanks, Stuart.

It's not an admin task, is it? This is a key lever to drive growth. Why is that so, why do we or why or how do we change the thinking for MSPs to think of it like that?

HEATHER: Well this is one of the things, right? So I see, and even like a on LinkedIn, yesterday somebody was posting on someone I know essentially they'd called out and said that accountant was shut because they were right. And then someone said, oh, you could do all this stuff yourself. And a few people said it, no. As like me saying, I'm just going to do my IT myself. Everybody recoils in horror and goes, what are you doing? You crazy women. I don't do my it myself. I've always outsourced it because let the expert do the expert job. I'll do mine. Because it's about how much it costs you. So I know we job. I know what you meant was, as an MSP, you are worth more than, yeah, you can charge out. You can charge it x amount an hour for your time. Why are you doing this when you probably should get someone else to do it.

IAN: Yeah. Yeah.

HEATHER: And that's why now the right book, the right, and this is really important, the right bookkeeper team for your business is invaluable, priceless, because if they know your industry and they know your business

IAN: Absolutely.

HEATHER: And you get everything in the right buckets, you can see your numbers without being bogged down in those early details. If you're in the detail, I can tell you now, you're not reviewing it, because you think you've seen it, you haven't seen it. You've just put a bunch of numbers in. But when you can actually see that information very clearly, you can make very sensible decisions.

IAN: Yeah.

HEATHER: About your business. However, if someone, which we have seen so many times, the wrong person doing the job, the director doing the job, a finance person that's. Not qualified or has talked rubbish and they've done the job really badly and we've dug people out of some serious holes. If they're in the bucket doing the job, that's a problem. And then some might go, how do you qualify? If someone's right for that role. And it's difficult because I couldn't qualify someone to work in an IT role, could I? Can you turn it off and on again, that means that I could work in IT. But a joke, it's not, you can't and it's really difficult and that's where now trying to, now I'm so open about and my LinkedIn and issue as much information as I can so people can use that to like mark against is my finance person doing the right thing? And I'll have a lot of conversations with people where they go, actually, I don't think my finance person doing the right thing or there's a gap in what we're doing. We've got the reporting, but I think the data's crap or I've got the data, but I want to do the reporting. And that's nice. So look for those education pieces around that. If you're ever looking to verify, like. As your finance functioning well enough.

IAN: So how, how would you measure that your finance function is working properly, or your accountant or your bookkeeper is aligned with you? You know, do they not just submit the figures, you look at them, glaze over, tick in the box, and then you crack on. But how do, how does it show up to, you know, what does good accounting practices look like or how, what should the MSP look for with a good accountant or good bookkeeping?

HEATHER: Yeah, so we'll go with the account. Let me very quickly explain the difference because a lot of people go, but what would you do different here. So we are a virtual finance department. We are like your IT department. That's what we're like. It's a bit like co-managing, I suppose, right? So we look after from mailbox right through, so we get all the information on the data from in the right pot. The compliance work AKA the boring bits, sorry, accountants. But they're right. The bet that they signed the for, I don't mean that like they do, they need to do that job, but I don't want to do that job. I can, but I don't. So they put together, like you've accounts, what you'd be looking forward is if you're accountant's contacting you eight months after your lead end, change your accountant.. If your accountant is telling you, your VAT return number has been figure and it's been submitted the day before, it needs to be paid, change your accountant or change your bookkeeping process. This is where we flip in, so we'll look at the process. Is the information getting to the accountant on time. That's my bag. My world. So we wrap up within 10 days of a month, a quarter, well, every month then, so that within 10 days, it's worth the accountant, right? There's no reason why a VAT return should ever be the day before, right? The payment being due. So this is little tests that you can listen to the processes, whether they're the right people, but then maybe you look at like the outputs as a owner what you're looking for, you know, you're looking measure they know, things like, has your margins changed this month to last month? Are they insanely different? Why? Why are they different? Can someone explain to you why that's different? Also now again, looking at things like your age debt, these payables, what's happening is your customers paying you on time? Why is your debt increase this month to last month? Was it because it was a chunky invoice that's not being paid? Why is it not being paid? It's about using those, the good data with the right people to get ahead of the problems or else you'll spiral. And that's where we often pick things up because it's spiraled.

IAN: And is it down to the accountant to provide a commentary on that so you can start to learn about that or is that something that the accountant should just give you the figures and you have to work it out yourself as an MSP.

HEATHER: Yeah, this is fascinating. Yeah, because this comes up as well. Because people always go, I'm going to sack my accountant their shit. I'm like, wait, they're not shit. They're shit if they're not getting stuff on time, but what they're not an accountant, compliance sheet end accountant is not there to hold your hand unless you've asked them to do that and they've asked them to do that, you have to cross their palm with silver doesn't work like that. They go, oh, I'm not getting any tax advice. Have you asked your accountant for tax advice? Tax advice isn't free. None of this shit's free. Right. No. Not going to go to an MSP and say can I have a free 365 license, please? I'm not, yeah. You pay for everything. So you have to make sure that what you've asked for is what you're getting. And don't be upset if you're not getting something, if you didn't pay for it. And that's really important. If you are looking for someone to guide you through your numbers, that's where your internal finance department or virtual finance department team, that's the people that guide you through it month on month because you, you'll be looking at monthly, not yearly. The year end should not be a surprise. You should have seen that 11, 12 times before.

IAN: I think that we, we, we've pretty much put that to bed and I think you know exactly what you need to do with that area. I think that was a great section there. Let's talk about money traps. What are some of the money traps that you see with MSPs and how do we avoid them?

HEATHER: Thankfully none of my clients are involved in that but you do hear of it in the rooms. Someone was posted on LinkedIn about they're race to the bottom, and I thought, I'm not sure you could get any further down than that, to be honest. I was like, I'm swear to God, you're not making any money and I don't know how you can tell the rest of the world you are. It isn't possible, actually impossible. But, Yeah, so you can just see like there's a bit of that going on. Now not knowing what's profitable and what's not. I did cover it earlier on. Yeah, it's really important to know that because again, you don't want to be chucking something at the of a low margin when you could be having a bit more money. And cashflow is something that I guess people don't pay enough attention to. And I posted about that last couple of days. It's been definitely in my mind a lot more like, and profit does not equal cash and you might go, oh, I've made X amount. Well, I don't know. I've made five grand worth of profit this month. Bloody good for you. Wow. Brilliant. But you've got other commitments.

IAN: Yeah.

HEATHER: That don't hit your profit loss. They're balance sheet items and you all go, well, what's the difference? Well, the difference is it's not part of the costing. So therefore you've got loans or you're trying to invest in some things in your office to make it better. Like assets. There's things that are in there and people don't necessarily understand the link between cash and profit. And they look at their P and L and they think they're having a great year and actually don't realise the implications of not understanding what is happening with their money. And they end up with an overdrawn direct loan account because they didn't have the money to take out the dividends that they thought they could. So there's lots of things within that.

IAN: Yeah, we heard a couple of MSPs this week talking about oh, it'll be all right in March, because that's when I get my Microsoft billing comes in for the annual bills, and it's like, oh, hang on a second, that's a payday. That's a 12 month payday. Yeah, you've got it in March, so it's exactly to your point. March is going to be great. April, May, June probably going to be pretty fantastic. But that wave is going to crest and it's going to drop and it's going to, it's going to run out if you're not careful. I don't know whether you see many MSPs doing that and been a bit out of control that time of year.

HEATHER: Yeah, I've seen it before. Especially when they don't have management accounts in play. Because what they're not doing is aligning that income and expenditure. And they are literally just looking at now, and what they do is they look at a P now to date, but to date doesn't show you all the costs. So if you're ever not, if you're not doing right, this is the top tip. If you are not doing management accounts, which, no, that's a sin. But.

IAN: But we won't judge you.

HEATHER: I'm not judging you, but it might burn a little bit Okay. When you get there. But if you are not, do not look at the P and L to date. Look at the P and L to the last closed, finalised period. Let me explain if we are now in this month's, mid-November, okay? Look at your debt numbers to the end of October and be mindful of any quarterly, annually billing that you've sent out. And don't just think you've got a ton of money when you don't. That's a mistake I see.

IAN: Little top tip.

HEATHER: It worries me. It does worry me.

IAN: Little top that tip there for you? Another top tip, I'm just going to dive into a question that we hadn't planned to ask you. What's some of the best tools that you've seen out there? And this is given me MSPs, shiny ball approval, to say what are some of the best tools that you've seen that are just like, everyone needs to have this for their financial management or this or this. What are some of the really cool things you've seen over the last couple of years come out that's really helped?

HEATHER: Well, we all know that I am not a fan of any other accounting software other than Xero. I have special names for them. The other ones, even my daughter knows what they're, she goes, what's it called? What books? I'm like, you should not say that word.

IAN: Yeah, no. Others are available.

HEATHER: Others available. They're, and I'm not a Xero only practice, but it's the right tool for the job right now.

IAN: Yeah.

HEATHER: Okay. You're not too big for it. People will, oh, you're too big for it. No, you're not. It's a bloody good tool. And they are constantly working with other tools to have integrations and make them better. And I'll tell you one, actually, I don't want to get lynched for this, but Okay.

IAN: Here you go.

HEATHER: So I tried out zooming payments. I took one for the team everybody okay. No. Hard. No. Okay. We're gone. Absolutely not. Okay. I'm with GoCardless because there isn't a different tool right now for payments that I believe and have seen to be good enough meant payments, absolutely not. Right. Right.

IAN: Okay. Hey, that's absolutely brilliant show. Thank you very much for the, for the entertainment, I think is what we'll say. What's your top summary, top three points here for MSPs to kind of walk away with from this show in terms of takeaways?

HEATHER: Okay, so the first thing I'd say is now every month without fail, block out a couple of hours in your diary and now, do it on a morning when before now everything's on fire. To review your numbers right? Even if they're of crap is about forming a really good habit. And then once you've got the habit, you're going to start going, oh, that doesn't look right. You're going to start looking at your, it's your business. You are in charge of this. You have got the key to your destiny. So that's a big recommendation of mine. Also look at, while you're doing that now, who's doing the work? Who's putting the numbers in? Where are they coming from? Making stuff up. Is the right person doing the job? Are you doing it? Are you the right person to the job? Probably not. I said that nicely. You're not the person for the job. Get rid of it. Give it to someone else who should be doing it, who's capable of doing that. And like when I think about the MSP space as a whole, and I think the last 12 months. And it's really great to go to them. And you can be very distracted because you want to get out because you want to see your friends. Now, running a business is very isolating and I absolutely get that, but be choosy. Only go where you need to go when you want a new tool. Otherwise we've got shiny syndrome and like, oh, that's good, that's good. We get confused. Then, if you want to see your friends and build your relationship, find the right events for that as well.

IAN: Yeah.

HEATHER: Now, now looking at the last year now, I did lots of different events and I'm a huge fan of like the Hunters Road shows now. I love the Geist bits, but I would really recommend as well go and see PAX8.

IAN: Yeah,

HEATHER: PAX8 now, I went to Berlin and I've been to Copen. I've not gone, I've not been to Copenhagen yet. Amsterdam, I've been to Amsterdam. I'm going to Copenhagen, but I really recommend that for MSPs, it's not just a massive vendor fest. It is, there's lots of real great key takeaways. Now, the academy teams there. Now you can vote on a, the other side. You can, as an MSP owner, you can have the rest that you deserve.

IAN: Yeah.

HEATHER: While seeing your friends, while having takeaways, and now you absolutely welcome back, hit the ground running and do some different stuff. I've so many MSPs that I spoke to just kept action and there was actionable takeaways. And you're very well taken care of, and they know how to do a good event.

IAN: Yeah, I heard, heard some very good things about that as well. No, yeah, I agree with everything that you said there. Heather, it's been a great show. Thank you very much. Hopefully not so long next time just for people not who want to continue the conversation with you, whatever conversation that may be, how they get in contact with you, Heather.

HEATHER: Well, if you've been living under a rock you haven't seen me on LinkedIn, I do all my own tracks. I love it over there. But if you do want to contact me, I am on LinkedIn most of the time. Love it. And alternatively, you can now go through my website to contact me but or I speak to other people that work me. Speak to Ian. I'm sure you'll pass the details on. I'm not going to give my phone number out because that...

IAN: Yeah. No, we'll drop all the, we'll drop all the links in the show notes, so just hit the show notes and we'll be away. So...

HEATHER: Thank you for having me. I appreciate that.

IAN: No.

HEATHER: You're right. It won't be so long next time.

IAN: No problem at all. It's been absolute pleasure. So, well done for this year and good luck for the business for next year.

HEATHER: Thank you.

IAN: And, yeah, look forward to catching up with you all on the next show. You take care now. See you later.

OUTRO: Oh, but one last thing just before you shoot off. And if you're curious about how this episode links with the ability to scale your MSP to a million or, or if you are already there, accelerate to five, then we want to invite you to come and take the MSP Mastery quiz. And in just three minutes, you're going to get a 360 degrees scan of your business where you can identify the one or two tactics that can help you find more time engage in, align your people and help generate more leads in your MSP. It's really simple. Just click on the link in the show notes and if you have enjoyed this episode, we'd love to get some feedback from you by means of a rating review on Spotify or iTunes, or your podcast platform of choice. We really appreciate every single one of them. Now, you can go and enjoy the rest of your day and we look forward to catching up and connecting with you soon. All the best day.