EP279 - How to Build a High Performing Team – MSP Show Power Panel with Zoe Chatley, Julie Hutchison, Phylip Morgan, and Ian Luckett

IAN: In this episode of The IT Experts Podcast, we're going to help you go from chaos to clarity and work out how to build a high performing team.

INTRO:  Welcome to The IT Experts Podcast, the only podcast to help MSPs scale to 1 million, and if already there, get to five and go faster. At the end of the day, isn't it all about building a business that works for you rather than you for it? I hope you enjoy the show.

IAN: So good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to The IT Experts Podcast. We have got an incredible treat for you today. You are not just going to get one listener to this show. You are going to get two listeners, because number one, we have got an MSP Leadership power panel that you can see in action at the MSP show on the 14th of May in London. And what I thought I'd do is I'd get these amazing, incredible experts together and we can have a conversation on the podcast to find out how to build an amazing, high performing technical team. So we've got some great leadership experts here. We've got Phylip Morgan from PAX8. We've got Julie Hutchison from the MSP Growth Hub, and we've got Zoe Chatley from the Channel Recruiter. Good morning everybody. This is, I'm not sure how this is going to work because we've got two and a half people on the podcast at the minute, one joining in a little bit later. So before we get going today we're going to help uncover some of the biggest myths and some of the issues around leadership. This real problem that many MSPs because they're most mostly technical have when it comes to building a high performing technical team. And we've, as I say, we've got a real power panel with you to hear today. So, Zoe, very quickly introduce yourself. Who are you, what'd you do, and who'd you help?

ZOE: So thank you very much, Ian. I'm Zoe Chatley. I'm the managing director and owner of the Channel Recruiter. We are an IT channel, specific, can't say the word specific, recruitment agency. So we work solely with IT vendors, distributors, resellers, and MSPs. And we hire everything from sales, marketing, commercial, technical, you name it, as long as it's in that industry. But we've got a lot of experience building ssales teams, leadership teams and beyond. So hopefully I can add some good value to today's call.

IAN: I'm sure you will. Thank you very much for that. Julie, who are you, what do you do and who'd you help?

JULIE: Hi everyone. My name is Julie Hutchison and my company's called Think Be Do Leadership, but I also do a lot, a lot of work inside the MSP Growth Hub with all of Ian and Stewart's wonderful businesses that they work with, and I am, very much into helping the leaders to show up in the way they need to show up so that their teams want to do the things that they want them to do with a smile on their face, let's say. And so, how do you need to show up as a leader so that people are, or they can do what you want them to do. They want to do it, and they know which direction that you're going in so they can make good decisions in your business. That's really so, so, so important in IT businesses. Definitely. I would say.

IAN: That's brilliant. Thank you Julie. Phil, who are you? Who'd you help, and what do you do?

PHYLIP: So, I'm Phylip Morgan from PAX8. I'm 37 this November, a 37 year veteran of the tech channel. Former MSP owner set up various business, but today my life is spent taking the vision of PAX8 forward. I'm the former Chief Revenue Officer of PAX8 EMEA. But of the last 18 months I've been working in the AI space as we've been moving our employees, from being, knowledge workers to intelligence architects, using all of the AI tools that are in the market. So that's what I do today.

IAN: Otherwise known as been in your happy place I think that's cool, isn't it?

PHYLIP: Yeah, I don't do anything anymore unless I'm in my happy place. Don't ever do a job that you dislike.

IAN: I love it. Absolutely love it, Phil. Well, look, this is the power panel. These are the experts that we are going to see on the 14th of May in London at the MSP Show. So please come along and meet up. But Phil, I'm going to start off with you and something you just mentioned there about being visionary. We talk a lot. With MSPs about, you know, having the vision, having the big mission, what you're trying to create and the values in the business. And a lot of people just kind like shun it and go, oh, that's just big for the corporate. People don't need to worry about that with small people, small businesses, we know that's wrong. We know that as soon as you, you know, you have to have that vision and driving that forwards. But what does an MSP owner look like before they have that kind of vision. What does, to try and resonate with the audience here? What does, you know, before they have that direction? What does it, what does life look like?

PHYLIP: Well, I'm not sure if it's possible to even not have vision. Right? As part of the kind of life forms on this planet, we have eyes that are in the front of our head, the shortest kind of vision of most of creation. And I think that's because we designed to go forward, right? And I think if you think about vision or leadership, right? It's about going from here. This is where we are today. And going to there and in order, go from here to there, that is the essence of vision and leadership is what gets you from here to there. So I think in whatever business we find ourselves or just life, right? We have to go from here to there because we can't stand still.

IAN: Yeah.

PHYLIP: So that requires all of these kind of big things that maybe we'll talk about in detail again, in terms of change management and everything. But everybody wants clarity on where there is.

Whether that's government whether that's running a company or whether that's for our own individual lives, we really have to be clear about moving from here to there and what does it look like? And in my experience, and you do a lot of this in the MSP hub, right? There's a lot of wooliness, particularly in some business leaders and some smaller business owners, that all of the, what it looks like to move from here to there is actually is in the founder's head and nowhere else. And that's what creates problems and misunderstanding and a lack of clarity then. So vision is really the embodiment of moving from here to there.

IAN: And so what would you say to an MSP owner if they came up to you or you found out that they just sort of said, look. I've been doing this for 15 years. You know, I just do what I need to do and I just like to carry on and, but I know one day I'll probably need to sell the business and, you know, yeah, I'm, kind of doing all right. If you were to sell vision, if you were standing there at a car boot sale, selling vision, what would be the main benefits to this owner to reignite and to add that energy?

PHYLIP: Well, I think for them and their families and where they are right now, they already have like a vision for the future, right? Maybe. Because they're not going to be working when they're 96. Maybe some of them are okay but they have a vision for them and their family or whatever that they maybe want to retire or want somebody else to come and do a management buyer. I don't know what it is. But in my experience, the, what I affectionately call ABOs accidental business owners, right? They never set out to do this. They just love tech and got involved in doing it. And before they know it, they've got customers and they've got employees and they're, oh my gosh, you know, how do I organise all of this? But I go back to first things first, which is, hey, what is your vision? Where do you want to be? Five, 10 years or whatever from now? Yeah. If you want to retire at 55 or 60 or whatever it is, well, what does that look like? And build back from that. That's what vision is.

IAN: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Julie and Zoe, I'm going to come to you next on this one here. So, Julie, you know, you see, I mean, we don't use this word lightly, but you have helped us transform so many people, leaders. Who have either come into the growth hub or come into the world scared and left confident. And personal vision is something that, that we talk about quite a lot. And I know that you are, you know, a massive advocate and there's tons of little tools and tips and tricks with this. Again, if we hand it over to you, this leader who was a little bit scared and a little bit, kind of like tentative, maybe not as confident as they should have been. You know, where would you start with helping them to, as Phil said Get more out of life and do stuff you enjoy.

JULIE: I think, I love what Phil said. Actually. I wrote a little note. I put the problem is the vision is blurred. You know, you said that everybody has a vision and I almost, because I'm that kind of girl, I was like, oh no, I don't agree with that. But actually I do agree with it. It's just, I think the vision is blurred. And so, like, Ian, when you are saying like, well, how do people get the best out of things, I think is they have to stop for long enough off that hamster wheel.

IAN: Yeah.

JULIE: And, and go like. What do I mean? And you, oh, I want to retire sometime, or I want to sell my business. That's not clear enough. That isn't, that's not, that's just a little bit of a in the air somewhere, you know? Like actually, what do you really want? When do you want to retire? How much do you want to retire on? How much do you want your business to be? Because unless you stop and really ask yourself from a really deep place, and I think this is the problem, it's like, what do you really want? And people don't want to do that because it's in the too hard box. So we make them do that in the growth hub, don't we? But like, unless you stop and do that, then everything is so wooly that nobody can come with you. You can't even get there yourself. If you just go around, it's like a roundabout and you go round and roundabout round and round and round because you don't really haven't got a clear idea of which one you want to get off at. And I think that the biggest thing that you need to do is to just stop and say, okay, what does it actually look like? So. Like, I want to retire by 50. Well, for it, it's no good for me because I'm 55, but like, I want to retire by 50, let's say. I'm assuming that a lot of them are younger than me. And I need this much money. I want to do this with my employees. I want to do this, you know, whatever the thing is. But really being clear because once it's clear, then. You actually do feel like you know how to get, like Phil said, from here to here, because you actually know where here is not just some little puff in the sky, but you know. All right. Okay. And once you know exactly that, you're like, well, what are the steps for that then?

ZOE: Mm-hmm.

JULIE: And that makes it much, much clearer. And I think what happens a lot of the time is be until we get to that point of the clarity, we are just going round in a circle. Because yes, we've got this vision somewhere on the bank you know, thing for the, you know, bank or something like that. But like, really what we've got is not that. And that's why people just do go round in this little circle of just doing, doing, doing. Because they're like, well, I don't know which way to get off this roundabout so they don't get off. So I think that would be the thing. I would be like, this is why you need to do it. This is what you need to do, which is sit down and get a proper piece of paper and ask yourself what do you really want? And then people can come with you. And if they don't want to come with you, they can make that choice too. But at that point, you, you know, Zoe will probably recruit the right person because they want to go in the same direction and you know, we'd all be like, right, everybody agreed we're all going. You know, I often say where, you know, when we're going on holiday, we ask where are we going? That's the first question and if you don't want to go skiing, because you don't like skiing and you want to go to Barbados, don't get on the bus. And so everybody can come with you and you know you want to go there. So you're much more likely to take the steps that you need to take along that line.

IAN: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for that, Julie. And I think what I heard there was quality time to stop and think, you know, and reflect and just to kind of like, just to figure it out. You know, what it is that you want to do, Zoe, you, you know, you've got massive experience in, in not only recruiting, but in how people behave and do the right things and don't do the right things and kind of that sort of stuff. How does vision ever come up in any conversations when you are working with new MSP, is it something that they've even thought about before or there must be some future planning on, well, what does the plan, because some MSPs must just go, I just need some techs. Zoe, I'm just busy. I just need some people to put some boots on the ground. Please just do that, does this conversation come up in your world?

ZOE: All the time and actually, as I was listening to both of you then. I can relate to so much of that myself as a small business owner as well. You know, the first couple of years I started my business, I did not have a vision and we snowballed and we hired, you know, drastically. We weren't really thinking about what we were doing or what we were hiring, and I see a lot of that with a lot of the, the small businesses or you know. Whether it be MSPs or even distributors actually that we've worked with that are small and have got this sort of aim to be big and bold and be out there, but they don't know how to get there and act. I do think it takes time before you figure out what your vision is I remember somebody saying to me, you know, what's your vision for the channel recruiter? And I was. I have not got a clue. I don't know. I was complete, I just didn't know. And even last week I had to really think about what it was. And you know, when we sit down with MSPs and you know, and we say, you know what's your goal for the business? Why are you recruiting these sales positions? Because we need to know what their why is, you know, do they know why they're recruiting? Is it just purely revenue or are they trying to do something a bit more with it? And what you tend to see before they figure things out is high retention. A lot of churn. But I think interestingly, and what's good is a lot of mistakes are made, but that's really, really important that they make those mistakes, because they learn from them. And you're not going to go from here to there unless you start making mistakes along the way and start figuring out what you're trying to do. And I think some of what we do in terms of helping them to build their teams is to actually help them figure that out and figure out what works and what doesn't before they get to that end goal.

IAN: Love it. Absolutely love that. I mean, look at that. What a great conversation to keep this podcast off with. This podcast could be going for probably two to three hours. We're not going to make that happen. This is going to be a short shot laugh.

ZOE: I need more tea.

IAN: Just you need, you need more tea. And then that or lean on to something else. And that's why we, wanted just to get everybody together to, uh, to talk about some of the key points. About this building your high performing team.

Julie, I'm going to come to you now to the subject that I absolutely love and every single time you talk about this accountability and difficult conversations, you have this incredible knack to help somebody who potentially might be a little bit nervous about how difficult conversations, letting people get away with things because I don't know how to talk with them and stuff like that. Just real high level at the minute, you know. Accountability is so key in, in every business leader's toolbox. But it's missing so much of the time, isn't it? And I know that kind of goes back to the vision a little bit about what we do and how do we kind of like measure it. But you know, from an accountability point of view, what do you see and what are some of the big, shifts that you see when people do start to be accountable and I guess get out of their own way? Right?

JULIE: When you say accountable, do you mean that you want your team to be accountable the, for the things that you would love them to do? As in like, as a leader, I've asked them to do something and they get on and do it.

IAN: Yeah. I mean, it could either be that or the major accountability for the whole business. But let's go with the team at the moment. Okay, because this is about the team, so, you know.

JULIE: Yeah.

IAN: Let's lean in on that one. Yeah.

JULIE: So I think that the ability of the team to be accountable is basically whether or not you've set them up to succeed in the first place, number one. Because I believe, and sorry, I hope you believe this. Well, I'm sure you do feel that most people come to work wanting to do a good job, you know? And so I think that we either set them up to succeed or we set them up to fail as leaders. And I mean, you know, I always talk about like the can't, won't, don't framework that I talk about. And they're like, they either can't do it or they won't do it, or they darn well don't do it. Okay. I can't do it because I don't have the skill or the confidence to make a good decision or do this thing.

IAN: Mm-hmm.

JULIE: But I won't do it as, I won't do it for you, because something is wrong with a relationship and don't do is, is that I don't want to go where you've just told me your vision is. Okay. So I choose not to, or I have no idea because you haven't told me, which is what we were just talking about. Okay. So we can't have a team that are accountable if they don't know where you're going. They can't be accountable if you haven't given them the skill. They can't. So we need to make that sure that's a can and we need to coach them because it's not just about do I have the physical skill to do something, it's do I have the confidence to make good decisions in your business? And the only way I'm going to do that is if I know, like we said, where we're going, but also the guiderails in which you want me to actually do. So if we haven't set up the KPIs, we haven't set up the guardrails of what good looks like, then nobody can be accountable, because they're just going to do the best they think they can. I think so. As leaders, we have to make sure that they understand that and that they, we have set them up to succeed. So we are coaching them to be able to be confident enough to make good decisions in the business. And that means that we have to change, because you know, when you get a small business that starts growing with the team, that leader has to change the way they show up. Because previously, and Zoe, you talked about you having a small business, you've probably experienced this and Phylip probably yours is probably bigger now. You've probably forgotten this, but like, you were doing everything before. Phylip you earlier on said, oh, I know I only do what I like. Yeah now, but that isn't the case when you first start a business. So you have to move from that, doing everything to this. What do I think I might, I give better value at, and therefore everybody else can do so I can delegate it. So in order to make people accountable. And have a business that's accountable for it is to make sure that everybody knows what their role is and that I'm not trying to do every single role and trying to step on everybody's toes. So I have to set them up to succeed and coach them and trust them and allow them to make those mistakes as I was talking about. But within the guide rails of the vision and then the KPIs that I've set, because if I do that. At least I've got, I'm not just like, abdicate in all responsibility for the things I don't fancy, but I'm saying, this is yours. This is what good looks like. This is where we are going. This is how to make a good decision in the business. Now I'm going to support you with that, and I want you to want to be in the room with me. So that's my won't, that's why, you know, I want to and you know where we're going, so let's get on it. And that creates people who are willing to make or take a risk, let's say, or make a decision even when you are not in the room or even when you are on holiday, on the beach. Because they're like, oh, well I know that like Phylip said that this is what we are doing. This is where we are going. And I know that he said that this is my responsibility because he doesn't do this thing, whatever it might be. And I know what good looks like. So what would he want me to do? I think you'd want that's the decision you would want. And that's how you create accountability. Because if I know what my KPIs are, I know what, I've got to get 20 of them or whatever the thing is, and I know how the business owner would like me to do it, then that leaves room for me to make some good decisions inside those guide rails, because they're going to leave me alone. Now, if you don't leave your people alone, just for anybody listening, then this will all fall apart because they'll get really fed up with you because you keep poking your nose in. But that's the point. I need enough room to make the decisions, but enough guidance to know what the right decision should be.

IAN: Love it.

JULIE: Does that make sense?

IAN: Yeah, absolutely love it.

STUART INTERRUPT: Hey, just a quick one from me, for everybody that's listening, Stuart here. If you're serious about growing your MSP, but you're not sure what helps right for you, then just grab our ultimate MSP Growth Guide. It's a really simple way to check out what's out there for support that could really help you work. There's no fluff. There's no filler, just facts. Or alternatively, if you want to meet us face to face and see how we do things up close, come along to one of our events. They're regularly put on, they're all in the links below. Go check them out, and now it's back to the show.

IAN: Thanks, Stuart.

Phil, you know. Shadow of the leader, how you show up, you know, you've got a got and had some really powerful teams across the world, in multi-disciplines and different places and different cultures and languages and everything. What's some of the go-to tools that you use to make sure that, we've got this accountability that's kind of like the 1 0 1, but then we've got engagement, we've got culture, we've got energy, we've got connection, and all of that kind of stuff. What are some of the power tools that you use to make sure that you stick all of this together?

PHYLIP: And do you know what? I've loved listening to Zoe and Julie there as well, because we are all aligned on this thing, right? Which is the clarity of what's required from an organisation as it moves forward over what good looks like. So, some of the listeners might be familiar with the Gallup 12 questions. I'm a huge, huge fan particularly of the first three questions. I think you could forget all the others if you do the first three. They're crucial. You know, when someone applies for a job or back to the work that Zoe's doing in kind of matching people with organisations to make sure that they're right. Fundamentally, it comes down to matching the cv with the job description, right? So that's putting hopefully the square peg in the square hole, if that doesn't match up CV to job description, that what ends up with that phrase that we say there are square peg in a round hole, right? Okay. So we want things to fit if we want them to fit Gallup question number one says, I know what's expected of me at work. And most times when I talk to people that unhappy in their work or there's stress and stuff going on, I say, oh, the weaker I've had, I say to them, okay, right. You know what happened? And usually it's a misalignment from what they were hired to do to what they are actually doing. The job description doesn't line up with expectation. And what I say to people, KPIs, people hate the word KPIs. They're the most freeing thing in the world. The reason I think they're the most three freeing thing in the world. If I know my top three KPIs and I'm aligned with the organisation and my line manager and the team, if I know my top three and they know my top three, it makes sure that the expectation that I'm not going to be measured by something that wasn't expected of me. So, for example, good example of, the brain of Phil Morgan. Please keep me away from spreadsheets. I hate the darn things. Okay. Too much detail. I can't even spell pivot table, but there are people on my team that are incredible. Oh, let me have that spreadsheet. They say.

IAN: Yeah.

PHYLIP: All right. Okay, so Gallup question number one. I know what's expected of me at work. Nobody on my team expects me to be doing PR spreadsheets because I put my hand up in the meeting and say, I need to that spreadsheet. And most people are saying no, we'll save ourselves as a team from that pain because we know that Phil is not good with the spreadsheet either. Okay? Secondly, I have the materials and equipment to do what I need to do. So even whatever it is, if your laptop isn't working and you have to wait 10 minutes for it to boot up, right? We have to create a great environment for people to work as well. And then that's what I think leads to the answer in the Gallup question three, and I know these off by heart, so forgive me, but I've made it part of how I lead, which is if we can do those things, we give people the tools to do their very best work, and we are clear on the expectation. Those top three KPIs. Then it leads to the opportunity to do what I do best every day. And that's what I meant other jobs that I do Julie, that I don't love doing. Yeah, of course.

JULIE: Yeah, exactly.

PHYLIP: Okay. But, 80% of the day I get to be doing what I love and that would be

JULIE: Yeah, right.

PHYLIP: Being in a meeting being creative with people, trying to kind of fix big problems. That's kind of what we're doing here at PAX8 as we live out our vision to build the digital workforce of the future for MSPs. Right? So as we are clear about our true north and where we are heading, we break it down to the sum of the parts to bring real clarity. And what I observe, Ian, when I'm talking to business owners, there's normally a frustration, which is, you know, oh, I can't get the staff. And more often than not, it's not a problem with the staff. It's a problem with a lack of clarity with the team that are you being really clear of what's expected from them at work today, so that when they leave they know they've done a good job. And secondly, how would you measure that, the measurements is the key piece.

JULIE: That's the thing about setting people up to fail. Quite often we miss all of that and if we just do that. Then we are setting them up to succeed. We are giving them the best chance of actually doing a good job for us.

PHYLIP: I agree, Julie. And setting them up to fail, okay, is us not being clear about the task. And then back to the question that was posed to Zoe in the first place. How can I keep you accountable to something that's not a shared accountability?

JULIE: I haven't told you about? Even.

PHYLIP: If it's in my head and Zoe and I are working on a project, and if it's in my head, Zoe and I haven't said to you, okay, so we're going to get this done yet by when? What does that look like? Okay. And what do you need from me? If there's no clarity, then I cannot keep you accountable to delivering a project by the, I don't know, 23rd of March, if that was, there wasn't clarity. And I think when it comes back to communication, and people say this often, oh, well, you know, my boss is not clear on things. Well, I don't really care if your boss is not clear on things. As an employee or as a contributor, you are allowed to ask for clarity. Is that something that works for you? So if you can create an accountable place where you are working, by really being clear and asking. So if the boss is saying, I want you to do that, and that, you say, okay, what does that look like? And by when and is that acceptable? And I need these tools to make it happen. So I think clarity is a upward thing as well as a downward thing. Right?

IAN: Love it. Absolutely love it. And if we only had a recruitment expert in the podcast who could answer the questions, like, how do we find the right people in the right role and set those expectations up, Phil, that would really help complete, wouldn't it?

PHYLIP: Would?

ZOE: Mm-hmm.

IAN: It would. Zoe?

ZOE: No pressure.

IAN: Go for it. What's your kind of view on what Phil just said there, which is just absolute gold?

ZOE: Yeah and you know, listening to both you and Julie, there was so many amazing points there about both because I, with Julie, some of what you were saying, I was thinking about you know, we, we teach a lot of our clients about employment branding, and that's not just the outlook. It's about getting candidates brought in to your vision so that they really, truly believe and trust that you know, they're coming into a business that they are, you know, are going to be able to meet those expectations, perform well, but also that they're getting something out of it as well. And I think that comes down to accountability on or fronts. So, you know, I've worked with MSPs that are, there's one particular that we work with in the West Midlands, and they're really small. They're growing and he's churning through staff. And I think it's because at the start, he wasn't clear about what his vision was and he didn't know what he wanted, so he was just hiring rampantly. And then his retention, the churn of people was he was losing people left, right, and center. It wasn't until he really sort of set that vision initially what we first spoke about, that he could truly take accountability for what he wanted his business to achieve and therefore once he knew that he could then hire the right people. I've probably gone off piece a little bit there, but there were just so many little bits of them, but I think when you are hiring you've got to look at what you can give your staff as well in order to help retain them as well. Because it's not all just about KPIs, is it? You know, it's great if they're performing that, but they've got to be brought into what they're selling, what they're doing, and who they work for, the business, the brand, everything. There's so many little bits that come into it, and I think if you can hire a continuous pipeline of staff that are then bought into it. Not only are you then securing your staff and your business for the future, you can look at hiring people that can one day be future leaders. You can then look at a continuous churn of revenue that builds up. If you are losing staff left, right, and center, you're never going to have a continuous pipeline of revenue coming into the business, especially with salespeople so higher for strength. Rather than need. I think that's really key there. So hiring people that can add value to your business in different areas. I don't know if I fully answered the question there by the, well, I probably went off on a bit of a tangent, but I think hiring for strength other than need is such a key thing. And I think it's where a lot of leaders sometimes go wrong, especially in those early days. I don't know. Phil, if you've experienced this at all, but I know I've hired people that haven't worked out, but I've learned from them and where we needed to go. And now I know the people that I'm hiring, I'm hiring for those strengths that they can build, bring to the business that allows me to do what I do well and where I'm strong at. And I see that with other MSPs as well, they can eventually have people in the business that are really, really good at what they do that allows their leader then to do what they're really good at. And altogether, they become this really good unit and team. And ultimately, I think that's what will help that business grow, retain staff, and hopefully build for the future.

PHYLIP: So, Zoey, why? Why do they get it? Why do they often get it so wrong though? You know, that MSP that you were referring to there by news of illustration just now, because let's say the four of us wanted to go out for a meal tonight. We're in a random city in Europe. We would just go online and we'd say what we going to have and we maybe pick some colory delighted from across the world that we would want. Even if we decide to, let's go, I don't know, let's go Ethiopian tonight, right? So we are going search an Ethiopian restaurant. Up it comes. The first thing we do is go and have a look at their website, look at the vibe, look at how they're serving, look at the reviews and everything before we make a decision of whether we are even going to step foot inside that restaurant. Right? And that's just whether we are going to, we are making those kind of choices. Before you even decided to spend two hours, let alone take a job at a place. Why is it that MSPs don't spend enough time building what their business looks like from the outside? So they can attract the right kind of talent. Why do you think that is?

ZOE: That's such a good question, and I think I could probably go on. On so many different points with this. I think one, it's expectation of themselves and their business and the people that they're hiring and whether they're realistic expectations as well. So, you know how when you are recruiting, how often do you sit and look at a cv and really, you know, a candidate can put anything possibly down on a CV, but isn't until you actually get them in front of you, that you truly get to start to know the person, and let's be honest, it isn't until they're actually working for you that you truly know that individual and what they're like. How many salespeople do you interview and you think, bloody hell, they're a really good salesperson, but are they just really good at interviewing?

Because we all know people that are bloody good at interviewing, but when you get them in, there's actually no substance behind what they actually do. And it unfortunately with recruiting, sometimes it is a bit of trial and error. And you know, the more experienced we are at hiring people, the better we are at judging people in terms of being a good judgment of character and what they've done. We can get references, we can look at, you know, past employment. We can look at how often they jump from A to B from this, you know, from job to job to job. And you know, how many times do we reject people? Because they don't last more than 18 months, two years in a business, we've all done it. We make that judgment on that person's CV before they even meet with us for that interview.

PHYLIP: Yeah.

ZOE: But I think what we have to do as leaders is when we are screening, we've all, we, again, it comes back to making mistakes, doesn't it? You know, learning from past mistakes, learning from the people that we're hiring. Look at the individuals that you've got in your team that are really bloody good. I use bloody a lot. I'm sorry, I'm using that word a lot. Why are they good at what they do? What are the characteristics of those individuals? Now, if you look back at that restaurant idea that you said at the start there, you don't know until you try the food, whether it's any good. You don't know until you, you try the service, whether it's any good. And unfortunately, you don't know whether the individuals you are hiring are truly good at what they do until they start working for you, you trust that they are going to be everything they said they're going to be. But I think the more experience you've got at hiring individuals and more mistakes you've made and what you've learned will allow you to become a better judge of character. And sometimes you'll get it wrong, but a lot of the time, the more experience you've got, the more you will get that right. But it is that trial and tested. And that's, you know, that's where recruiters come in because you know, ultimately we have to screen, we have to find these individuals. We have to screen the bloody life out of them and trust they're going to interview well and be bloody good at what they do, because there's one thing as a recruiter we hate, and then that's having to replace somebody that hasn't worked out.

PHYLIP: Mm-hmm.

ZOE: You know, we, you know, I put a lot of, not pressure, but part of the values that I have as a recruiter and the morals that we have is making sure that the people that we place into our client's businesses stay there and they do a really good job and they progress within that business. And that also comes down to the person that is hiring them as. Well, we want, you want our candidates to be, trusting us to place them in a good business in front of a good leader. So it comes from both directions, but ultimately you've got to, you've got to get them in front of them. And then you've got to test them out and see what they're like, probation periods, that's what they're there for.

IAN: Amazing. Team, we could be talking for a long time on this. We've only just scratched the service and not covered as much as I wish to cover, but absolute gold. So come and see us at the MSP show on the 14th of May 11 o'clock. We're going to have a really different experience in terms of an expert panel. Zoe give us your final thoughts on today's show.

ZOE: I really enjoyed it. I think we could have talked so much more and gone into so much more detail. I thought all of us came up with such brilliant golden bits of information that I think MSPs will find so, so useful. Whether they're starting out midway through their journey or coming to the end and looking to maybe, retire, sell, whatever it might be. There is so much good good nuggets of gold here. So I hope everybody's enjoyed today and thank you very much for having me. It's great to meet you both as well, and see you again, Phil, and yeah.

IAN: No problem.

ZOE: I look forward to seeing you all in May.

IAN: Good stuff. Well, we're going to put everybody's links in the show notes, so connect with us all on LinkedIn. And then you can see exactly what's kind of going on, and then we'll see you then. Julie, final thoughts from yourself on this very fast power panel.

JULIE: Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me, I is like, stop for a second and really decide where are you taking your business? Where do you really want to do what is that? What does it really look like? And get some very specific information for yourself. And then, as Phil said, we are only doing A to B. That's all we need to do, and let's just really simplify down what we're talking about as being a leader in your business and go for that, because then people can follow you because if they want to come to be with you, they'll come. And if you're a good person, they'll come. That's my hope.

IAN: Thank you, Julie. Phil, last but not least.

PHYLIP: Oh, well, I'm going to leave with a quote that from the conversations that I've had today, I am reminded once again by the legend that was Zig Ziglar, and that one of his favorite quotes is, there's only three types of people in life. Those that make things happen, those that watch things happen and those that wonder what the heck just happened. So I would like to think that the ones that are showing up and being part of the MSP show are the ones that, want to come, want to learn, want to get better, and want to ask themselves the deep, hard questions as Julie says, which is, Hey, what do I need to do to move my organisation and my own life forward today? And that's hard work.

IAN: That's fantastic. Well, thank you everybody for your time today. I now have absolutely no idea how the session's going to go when we get there because we know that there's so much to talk about. So there's a lot of work to do to try and herd the cats and get everything all in, but I'm sure it'll be an absolutely incredible session anyway, so thank you for your time and I look forward to seeing you there. You take care. Enjoy the rest of your day. All right. Cheers guys.

PHYLIP: Bye.

TEASER NEXT WEEK: And in next week's episode, we've probably got some free cash for you. We've got Jack Davis from PSS Tax, really great conversation around the changes to R&D tax credits. What you can actually get, what you can't get, how the process works. So if you've been thinking about doing it and you haven't done it quite yet, then go and have a look because it could be a right fit for your MSP. Check it out next week.

OUTRO: Oh, but one last thing just before you shoot off. And if you're curious about how this episode links with the ability to scale your MSP to a million or, or if you are already there, accelerate to five, then we want to invite you to come and take the MSP Mastery quiz. And in just three minutes, you're going to get a 360 degrees scan of your business where you can identify the one or two tactics that can help you find more time engage in, align your people and help generate more leads in your MSP. It's really simple. Just click on the link in the show notes and if you have enjoyed this episode, we'd love to get some feedback from you by means of a rating review on Spotify or iTunes, or your podcast platform of choice. We really appreciate every single one of them. Now, you can go and enjoy the rest of your day and we look forward to catching up and connecting with you soon. All the best day.