EP178 - We Want Different Things…Now What?!
with Joe Burns & Ian Luckett

INTRO

In this episode of the IT Experts Podcast, if you think you're on the same page as your business partner, are you on the same page as your business partner? That's a question that you can ask.

Welcome to the IT Experts Podcast, the only podcast to help MSPs scale to 1,000,000, and it's already there, get to 5 and go fast, and at the end of the day, isn't it all about building a business that works for you rather than you for it? I hope you enjoy the show.

IAN

So, good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to the IT Experts podcast. Today I have got a guest who has wanted to come on the podcast and I say that not lightly, but someone Joe Burns has said reached out to me after Stuart and I had a podcast about business partners and aligning your business partners been on the same page. And Joe says, hey, Ian, I need to talk to you, I've got a message here. So good afternoon, Joe. How are you doing today?

JOE

Hey, I'm good. Thanks for having me on the show.

IAN

No problem at all. So what's just happened? Let's just put a bit pretext around this. So Stuart and I did a podcast, two weeks ago, and because what we're seeing in the growth hub right now is many MSPs coming together, and many of you've got two business partners, some of them may them, they may be owners, they may be senior partners and some of the challenges that we see, the purpose of the podcast is to help you understand, we'll put the link in the show notes on this one. It is to help you understand what happens if you maybe misaligned with your business partner, one of you may be quite visionary, one of you may be very technical, one of you may be ambitious to grow, one of you may not be that ambitious to grow and how to overcome and how to deal with the strains and stresses that that brings when trying to work out what women looks like for you in your business. So as usual, Stuart and I flung up the mics, had a chat, put a podcast out, and hit Joe's earbuds and he went hang on a minute, I've done this, I've experienced this. I love to share my story on what happened and when people do that and by the way, if anybody else has got a success story or something they want to share about any, whatever it is we're up to in our podcast on the podcast, just Message Me on LinkedIn, drop me an e-mail, whatever it might be, and we'll get you on because what this is going to be really all about is listen to Joe's story and understanding how some of the methodology and maybe some of the frameworks that we spoke about in the early podcast actually came to life for Joe and gave him the impact. And you know, we just had a chat right now on the great place that he's at now. So without further ado, Joe, give us a little bit of an intro. Who are you? What do you do? Who do you help?

JOE

Yeah. So Joe Burns and the basically scaled not one, but now two MSP businesses. So I'll tell you more about the first one because that relates to the story in a moment. But I've learned a lot in my time in MSP World. Started back in 2005 when I was 21 and yeah, so for some reason, now I love this industry so much that after exiting one business I started again, co-founded another business. So going for punishment, some might say, but yeah, I really really enjoyed being in the MSP community and also now you know, very actively involved as a speaker at conference events, you can catch me at a lot of those a lot of those things. So yeah.

IAN

Right, okay, first question that we are going to prep for the, MSP community, right? We have people who come into our world and they say Oh my God, I never even knew this existed, you know, whether it be the Tech Tribe, CompTIA, any of the vendor events, any of these kind of great things, these things right now. When you say community, what do you mean and why does every single MSP not only listening to this but every single MSP in the UK need to get involved in the community, particularly as a from a, from a business owner, I mean you've, you come back, for more, you must be mad, a lot of people are saying. But what does the community mean to you, Joe?

JOE

Yeah. Well, it's funny because again, my two businesses told two different stories. So in the first MSP, I was very defensive so I wouldn't collaborate or communicate with a lot of what I would class back then as competitors. You know, the people in the MSP world. So we were quite guarded about what we did and were quite defensive and having, you know exited that business and then shared my story quite a few times, been involved in reformed. What I've come to realise is actually the MSP communities, a brilliant community, the most people in our in our industry are really collaborative friendly, you know we help each other out, we bring out we bring the whole industry up, rather than try to push push other people. Well, I think generally that's why I think it's so important for most people, and so just to be in that community and plus, let's be honest, it's a stressful environment, we're living in, as MSP business owners, stressful environment, high pressure. Now I've spoke to some people at events and they just say I come to this for therapy, you know, to talk to other people and realise tha all those are going through the same sort of pressure, and the same things that I am. And it feels better that way. So yeah, I think everyone should get involved.

IAN

And it would be remiss of me not to mention the L word lonely. It's a lonely place. A lot of people sort of like I think we're going to get a bit vulnerable with some of these deep words, but we have a lot of people say to us, you know what? It's a lonely place for me out there. How did you get comfort from the community with either of your MSPs? It sounds like the first MSP you use the community to lift you up, and now you use, now you're kind of giving back with the second, your second MSP. Can't wait you're going to do your third MSP, you know, from a business owners' point of view moving all those what we technically call the ****** little voices in your head where I'm not good enough. I can't do this. I don't have the confidence in all these things. And you know that growth, that personal growth of yours, just share with us a little bit of that post personal growth journey with that first MSP from our loneliness point of view finding the community, what does what did that feel and look like?

JOE

Yeah, well, so first MSP had my business partner and had the team around us. So I wouldn't necessarily say that, I felt lonely. You could feel challenges and you can go through the same challenges all business owners and particularly MSP business owners go through and I think that was the issue before. We used to try and figure it out ourselves and work out what to do and make decisions. But the thing is, again, in our community, everyone's been through the same sort of stuff. So instead of trying to figure it out on your own, it's so much easier to talk to other people and go now that this challenge, this has been going on in my world, have you, have you experienced that and you know if you've got a big enough community and there's, you know, the Tech Tribe and there's other kind of community event. But in terms of you can talk to people and they'll go, yeah, I went through exactly that same thing. This is what I did about it. Now, the one thing I would air on the, you know, on the side of caution for people is there's a lot of advice out there, you know, everyone's throwing out what they did, how they did it doesn't mean that everything you hear is right, but you can take bits that people say and if it wasn't resonated with you, then, then fine. You know, but it's...

IAN

Yeah, yeah.

JOE

So much better to do it that way than try and figure everything out for yourself.

IAN

Yeah, absolutely. And the top on that one for me is answer the question, what does winning look like for you, Stuart, I've just decided we're going to do a podcast on that very, very soon because that's really important and it doesn't necessarily mean exit, but what does winning look like for you, build a plan around it. And then as Joe says, go out there and work out who can help you accelerate the parts of that plan that are important to you right now. I was listening to an audio book this week and I've mentioned this to everybody that I've spoken to. So here you goes, you, you guys are going to get it now. And it was a Stephen Covey statement. And he basically said make sure that the main thing remains the main thing and is the main thing. And we see so many times in MSP business owners coming in, I just need to tell Mark, I just need to get this to work and then I'll be alright. Well, natural fact, your operations is going to probably fall over before anything else anyway. So just one thing at a time. You will get there. You will have every confidence if you're in the community and you're coming to these events and learning and understanding and connecting with people. You have. I think that's the thing you just mentioned there. I think there's just such a powerful place to be. So get involved. There we go. There's the 1st sidetrack on the podcast. Anyway, let's talk about business partners and let's talk about, you know, the different types of relationships that we can have. What was it Joe, that when you listened to the other episode of myself and Stuart that made you go, I need to share this with the Community. I need to get this message out there. What was kind of going on in your world at that time and guess what was the learning and the development from that space?

JOE

Yeah. So obviously in the previous business, I had a business partner. I've got two business partners in the current business. Which again, is... so some people say I didn't work out as like with the business partner in the last one and like, well, it did work out. You know, we did, we did well and we got we got an exit, it didn't work and it wasn't designed to work. Why I always put it down to and the catalyst for the conversation was down to where we was working with the business coach actually and it was growth accelerated program. We were looking at our forward projections for the business. You know, what did we want to achieve in growth over the next three years from that point in time.

And this was a valuable exercise that I now do all of the time in business is planning the next three years and that is a role in three year process but the thing is, at that moment we have done business plans in the past and we have targets, but this was an idea of pushing for growth. What we're going to do over the next three years, how ambitious are we going to. And what we realized when we sat around the table with this growth coach and said right, this is where you're at now and this is where you all you want to be in three years time. And we you have to put down a finger starting from turnover, you know we started what, what does the turnover look like in three years time. And we would put our figure. And when myself from my business partner they've said I think, it was miles apart, right miles apart. And so this got us to a point where I'm among his more ambitious. So I had a higher, higher figure, much higher figure. And what we realized is that, you know, our perception of what we wanted from the business, what we were going for was so wildly different, that it made it very difficult to realise or understand that we can meet anywhere in the middle and what I always put it down to is over those years we were growing that business from 2005 and we have actually sold it in 2016. So an 11 -year journey now over that time of scaling that business we already that was our positions. I was always more of a risk taker, more ambitious, more growth hungry and my business partner was always risk averse, more risk averse, more comfortable, happy with the type of business that was good for him.

But the good thing is, over the years we're we said that it created a good centerline it was the only we may basically put ourselves into a good position. I pulled the growth forward, he made sure we didn't go too fast, right. So it was almost like a an alignment that worked really to stabilize the busines. But the issue that that happened and I kind of was do it like like this I kind of go what happened is, I was going on an upward curve. And he was going on a downward curve. So ultimately, we have realised this podcast Sunday that hand gesture.

IAN

Right now I'm just thinking that that's on video. So for the purpose of the people on audio only, Joe was gestating in an upward fashion with one hand and a downward fashion, causing a gap in the middle on the other, you're kind of cool. You can watch it.

JOE

So we were basically that we were both getting further and further from that center line. And so it became more and more difficult for us to see eye to eye on decisions because of that. So. Yeah, that's ultimately that's what happened. We realized we got to a point where we were too far apart from each other's perspective of what needed to happen for the business, for us to feel, you know, feel good about it and feel successful in our own rights and to me, that was the moment that was the moment we were this this isn't working anymore, not in the same way.

IAN

You know, obviously you know, you can tell when you speak to people you know, with ambition here, there's drive here, there, you know, this is Joe Burns is what I want to do. This is what I want to achieve. You know when you set the business up when you originally set the business up were you both on the same page then, and you drifted or did you want different things. Those things came along and not I'm just interested in where the drift started, was it a personal thing, I obviously don't need to go into the details, but was there the delta?

JOE

I think if we go all the way back to the start, I think generally we were like any other kind of start up business mode is the you know the... Let's go. Yeah. Let's go. Let's do this right. We didn't, we had a plan, but the plan that we produced the business plan was more about going to the bank and try and see if they could give us any money which we, you know have the start realisation back then that you don't get money from the bank. Cause for a business to start up not for nothing but we create a business plan and it was more... It's funny because I said it, but it was a paper exercise. I looked back at it after three years and we'd actually followed the same plan that were written down and put in a draw, which is quite interesting. Well, yeah. So I'd say that when we start, we just want to get going and you don't start to realize what your ambitions are, I don't think straight away or in a lot of cases there's not a lot of clarity of what your ambitions are now having looked back at all of that journey and the start of Reform IT was much more clear court. right, this is, this is what I want to achieve personally out of it. This is what we want to achieve from a business perspective and we translated all that back. So it's much clearer now and much more obvious for me and the cofounders to understand on the same page, because we set it at the start and we keep having realignment meetings to say, you know, we're we are we all still on the same page, we all still want the same goal that's important I think.

sw

Yeah, I was kind of digging into that a little bit from a personal front as well, because Stuart and I got together, we were both absolute direct competitors, you know, 2 1/2 years ago when we set the business up and what was it that we wanted to do, And you know, as soon as I got into, it's going to sound really weird right now, as soon as I got into business, coach, and soon when I when I have court put back in in 2017, I was listening to something Gary Vaynerchuk said one of my missions in life is to cause a real problem at the church where my funeral is because, I wanted to be the biggest church, and I wanted have so many people, because I've left this legacy that is just going to cause such an issue and what a great problem that's going to be. Okay, that sounds really may sound a little bit kind of weird. And when Stuart and I were sitting there and why are we doing this? What's the point of doing this? We ate our own dog food and we did before we even told anybody what we were doing. We spent days in our office downstairs doing the vision, the mission, the values. Who are we? Why do people care about us? What do we do for people, how do we... And the number one thing, and we even do this quite like itself, you know, reviewing your targets, is what we're doing going to help us leave a legacy? And help other people the ripple effect of people helping people, helping people. And if it isn't, then we got to stop doing it. If it is, then we continue to do it because it's that cause. And I think you get that. You know, as you kind of I, I can see how your business set up now. So maybe you know, or maybe I'll flip the question then the other way. If the vision and the mission and the values of that business that you started up were created in a real detail to begin with, maybe they might not have got off the ground, or at least with that, you know, with that business partner sort of thing. But it sounds like these are the things that you're doing, you’d mbrace all the things they do.

JOE

I do. I do now again exactly the same as you. I'm all about that. But quite often I have conversation. Some people think it's a little rubbish. Right. The thing. Uh, it's just something that corporate companies do just sort of fun a bit. And so, you know, to me, it is important you've got to understand what is the direction of the business. You know, what is the business about? Why are you doing it? All those things are massively important, to understand otherwise, what motivation is that you know to push forward and also again when we're talking alignment, talking about alignment from me and a business partner perspective. But the other alignment you've got to do is you've got to get your whole team aligned, you know. You got to get everybody wearing in the same direction at the same time, and that to me is massive because if people are brought into that, people are all on the same, you know, in run in the same direction. It's going to be much harder to scale that business, going to be much harder to grow the business. So yeah, I'm a massively aligned. And the other thing that you mentioned? I'm part of trauma, I can’t say this but part of our IT nation and world now as well. And one of the things is, legacy planning. So...

IAN

Yes, very good.

JOE

So you've got your different plans, you've got your business plan, your legacy plan, your parent, you know your personal. So you've got all those plans, and they all need to allow they all need to come together. But you need to kind of start with what your legacy and what your own personal plans. Those things are then what you then do to try and understand what your business plan does to facilitate and the vehicle to get you to where you want to be essentially. So, now I'm massively in agreement with all of that.

IAN

Now, I mean it... So we speak with many MSPs about when that person, that toxic employee who sits in the corner of your office and if you are sitting here listening to this now going. Yeah, I've got one of them then get rid of them. Right. Just get rid of them. Bite the bullet and get rid of them. Because I'll tell you what will happen and I'll tell you we've probably had five conversations so far this year. About doing that, being brave, getting rid of those people because they don't line up with the values and where the business is going and every single time the rest of the team. Go. Ohh thank God you've done that. We can all work but and half of the time, half of those five, all well, not half of the five, but you know, probably 3 out of 5 haven't recruited because everybody else has then buckled in, knuckled down, they're all trying to create what the business is trying to do without these negative people. So you know, if you've got people there in your business that are not lined up, you know I could be talking business partners, but we talk about the team as well. They're not lined up, they're not in tuned, they're not running your values. Then when the stuff hits the fan and you got to move things around and you've got to change or a new product comes in and you've got to dapt or a new member of staff comes in or you make a decision, you want to do something differently. You need your team behind you and doing that corporate waffle of vision, mission and values and. It isn't corporate waffles. I don't know why I just said that, but what people see, see it as is tey're not, I think and Stuart probably would agree as well is the most powerful thing that we teach the method, you may as well which is...

JOE

Yeah, we, we've got our vision day coming up in Reform.

IAN

Wow.

JOE

You know, get annual Vision Day, which is, you know, make sure everyone understands, you know, what's going on, what's the direction. But we also have a theme, a yearly theme as well. So we have like a vision, our mission and core values. But at the same time, we have an annual theme. This year's theme is Automation and Efficiency. We want everybody in the business to in this year to think how do we make our role more efficient. How do we automate tasks that we don't, you know we shouldn't be repeating over and over again, so yeah.

IAN

And it's amazing how, whoever you talk to there's probably a minimum even in the best MSPs, a minimum 25% efficiency in it, and efficiency isn't about getting rid of people. It's about your headspace so you can do more strategic thinking and you don't get caught up in the weeds. You have to get caught up in the tech. Do you know what, Joe? I have no idea where this podcast is going right now I've got things in here I think we're making our way through it. Aren't we? But it's a great conversation because I think it's just, you know, it's just it's just so inspiring to hear someone who applied you know, a lot of the frameworks. Guess what? None of this business growth stuff is brand new. It's all been stuff that's tried and tested and you know now people like you and I and Richard Tubb, Paul Green, and the others are all out there, just blending it in for the MSPs, which is super cool. So you then got to a point when you decided, you know what, we need to sell this was there no way that you could have bought your partner out or what?

JOE

So the way that conversation went is that my business partner said I want out, right? He wanted out. So we've come to this realization that it wasn't working with the two of us anymore, and we needed to make a change. He said he wanted out of the business and to which I said, you know, that's understandable, you know, given where we're at. And I would be willing to buy you out of the business, but I think the best way to create the valuation for the business is not for us to try and negotiate up between the two of us. I think that'd be difficult and quite messy. What we could do is we could what somebody else is prepared to pay for the business. So we set a real market valuation really and then when that offer comes along, I want first refusal to pay you 50% of that offer. If you would have taken it, if you did take it anyway. But equally, if the offer comes along and we both want to take the offer, then we just sell the whole business instead. So that's the journey that we that we then went down is, is getting people interested in the business to buy the business. So that we could establish that market valuation and when we did eventually get an offer, we obviously negotiated a bit, but we did get an offer that I was like, you know I'd be willing to cash my chips in at this point to walk away. So yeah, we got to that point. I did have some shapes during that process because then he was stepping away from the business to make sure one I could continue to run it because that was the idea I was going to stay on after acquisition to run it. And so he stepped away from the business to prove that it would work. And and I could see everything what was happening. We were we were on a great growth trajectory and I was like, well, you know, this is a good business and it's growing quite well. Some days you go back to the acquirer and say actually I might have changed my mind. I might end up buying the business myself. So yeah, I ended up, you know, thinking well, actually, it's now's a good time to step away from the table.

IAN

Move away and then get away from that. What were some of the key elements? Couple of M and a golden Nuggets. Knowing what you know now about your first, was that your first, that was your first first one.

JOE

Yeah.

IAN

In your new business, what would be your 3 strategic objectives to make sure that number one, you get an offer and another you will cause you've done it once you know? But how do you get maximum valuation? What are the three things, Joe.

JOE

I like that question because I talk about this quite a bit now so.

IAN

Loaded it up.

JOE

In terms of, so there's a word that I use called monotony and everyone knows a monopoly because of the board game. But monotony is basically where there's a market with only one buyer right and we put ourselves in that position. We got really excited when we got somebody that come along that was interested out in our business. And we got really, really excited because we're only interested, we're having negotiations and this might lead to something. But what we failed to do is think well, actually we want to attract multiple kind of not multiple bids because obviously if you got multiple bids it drives the price up. If you only got one, it drives prices down. So yeah, that was a big mistake. You could say we made and I didn't truly reflect on that until years later. Yeah. Thinking, actually, you know, we did get a deal that worked for, you know, for us. But we didn't mean to value ourselves by not getting multiple bids at the same time and that was just purely down to from my opinion, excitement of the of the offer and the fact this one is interesting and you, you can't get tunnel vision into that process.

So that's the first mistake, it’s absolutely make sure that you're encouraging multiple offers, which then leads me on to probably the next thing which is just build the business even if you're not planning on selling the business right? Build the business as if you're selling it to somebody. So just like you do with your products and services. So you, you should, I hope that what you're doing is you go like there's a need for our clients. We're going to create a solution to their problems and their need by creating a product or service that fits that is attractive, the same thing should apply to your business. It should look attractive to a buyer. So in order to do that, you need to understand what's important to the buyers, you know, and when you before we start recording, we chatted briefly about business owners being involved in the business that isn't seen as an attractive treatment because you know they rely, especially if it's smaller and it's solely reliant on a single person or a couple of people. Then it's really hard for somebody to buy that because they've got to try and get it out of that relationship management with just one or two properties. So I think one of the well, the double-edged sword on this one is understand what people want in terms of an acquisition and what they were buying and remove yourself from the business, make yourself redundant from the business, build teams, build processes make it, so you're not part of that isn't it? I think that's really important as well.

IAN

Absolutely. You know it, it's something that we, you know, we talk about building a business that works for you rather than you for it, we're the owners not needed, you know with whether Joe's not needed and don't be scared, that you know, I remember back in the day, you know, a lot of succession planning we're doing in corporate. And, you know, one of my bosses said to me, you know, I'm not scared about you taking my job because I can't move anywhere else unless I've got someone who can step in. And that's exactly how that was isn’t it.

IAN

I'll tell you, sorry and just I'll tell you one more quick thing on that. When we started the previous business, me and my business partner did everything over the years. We were the same. We the account manager we did ourselves and this time around with the Reform, it is very clear from day one with our business partners. I'm not being a techie, right? We start this business. I'm not a techie. That that's not my role. I'm not going back to doing first line support. So I think I this time I felt that we were starting the business more as a business owner rather than a technical person

IAN

Yeah, yeah, because there is that evolution and that maturity from a techie to business owner as you're going through, which is you know what, what both you and I do in the community do and everything on that which is ever so important because unless you got that confidence to become a business owner, you always going to stay a techie. And you keep doing things and you can you keep getting distracted with shiny balls and things like that. Just one last thing, I just want to talk to you about, before we before we bring this in for a bit of a landing is the importance of identifying a really clear target customer and target client. You know, we talk about niching. Everyone talks about niche in most people think, oh, I don't really need to do that. I've just set you with you some results, some of our clients who are really, really tight niches. You're a niche. I'm in a niche. Most people who are working, you know, supporting the MSP or in a niche, guess what, they're in the IT channel. How did this play out for you? What was your journey around kind of like marketing to everyone because that cause I'm not going to lose out to the performance that you got when you really did tighten that marketing channel down.

JOE

Yeah. So obviously previous business exactly the same as everyone else that says, well, you know, you can't really these we save this everyone previous business was not difficult to grow because we tried to sell to everyone. And the problem we're trying to sell to everyone is too big. It's too big, it’s not, it's not clear, it's not defined. This time around, we were much clearer. I wouldn't say we, unlike some like the example you shared with you, very, very specific laser focused on what one particular sector of service with reformed, we don't go to that level what we have done is we've identified 3 or 4 scenarios that we solve the problem for. So we've got industry specific sectors that we work with and by sector size profiles that we work with and we know we do a really good job with them because some people what happens for a lot of people is they think ohh if I do that if I know my target down, I'm not going to get as many opportunities and so they think they can't do that because they won't get the work but actually you can generate more work doing that because it's so much easier to market to and target to. And the thing is you will win more business because one of ours is like solicitors, legal or and the thing is if we're in front of the A managing partner at a law firm we all know from working with other through with other businesses, we already know their problems. We know what systems they're using, that they're using digital dictation, that probably you know our desktops are. Such security is really important to them. We've got cyber essentials and insurance. We know all of the things that they're going through because. We've seen it over and over again. And so it means as you start talking to them and using this system and using that. They really feel more comfortable that you know and understand that business. And so you win more business because you're the choice, because then they know that you can help them and that's the problem trying to sell to everybody. You've not got a very clear and defined solution to the to a problem you're not going to win as much business. You're going toa find it harder to market to them, so to me it's massive.

IAN

And this is the whole marketing message, isn't it? You know, when you're looking at some of the marketing material that's out there and you sort of think, oh, that's a bit and it's really very exciting. But if it says, you know, looking, you know, if you want to secure your legal firm in Stockport, blah blah blah, this is, that's me. It's so, hang on a minute... important I just thought. I'd just drag that golden nugget out to you cause it's something that we bang on about all the time and I know it's we of you and it's and it's helped you and succeed in in your business as well Joe, thanks ever so much again for your time. They absolutely love the story, the journey that you've gone on the application and also the polling results that you're getting as well, which is which is incredible MSP business owners either in a partnership or thinking about going into a partnership. Right, now what some of the you know, couple of three things, the top things they need to do as soon as they hit the shutdown on this podcast.

JOE

First thing is understand your personal goals and ambitions. Talked about it earlier. Legacy. What is it you want as an individual and make sure that you map and align the business to what your personal goals. And if you're in a partnership where you've got multiple people involved, then make sure that everybody is on the same page in terms of the business journey and how that's going to help you all individually to achieve your own personal goals. Be very clear on that from day one, not only be clear on it from day one as we experience it transitioned and changed over the time we didn't. Having a realignment conversations, it's important to keep checking in. Make sure you're still on the same page. And if you're not, why not. And what needs to be done about it to keep you to, keep you going, basically somebody.

IAN

Mr. Brexit.

JOE

Then understand that as quickly as possible and how to handle that situation.

IAN

Fantastic and socially brilliant and obviously reach out to the community as well. You know, you find them all over the place. LinkedIn Tech tribe CompTIA, you know, follow myself and Joe and you'll see where we're hanging out. And the people that were hanging out with as well. Joe, if anybody wants to continue a conversation with you and learn a little bit more about what you're up to right now. How do I get in contact with, mate.

JOE

Best way is using LinkedIn that I'm very active on LinkedIn posting sharing my journey so you know search for goblins on LinkedIn and you should find me associated with Reformed IT if there's more than one that pops up.

IAN

Great stuff and we'll put the link to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes as well. So look, bringing this one in, congratulations on your journey. Thank you ever so much for reaching out and sharing your journey with podcast listeners today as well and wishing you all the success I've never even noticed. You may not want to share what does winning look like in the second MSP?

JOE

Right. So second in this part I've got, I've got a personal wealth target in mind, so, so generally the businesses to help me to achieve my personal wealth.

IAN

Lovely. Brilliant stuff. That's what it's all about. That'll give you all those choices to, to do whatever it is that you want to do. So, Joe, it's been an absolute pleasure. Really enjoyed it. And I looking forward to catching up with you real soon.

OUTRO

Hang on a minute. Just before you go. And if you're curious about how this episode links with the ability to scale your MSP to a million or if you're already there, accelerate to five and one invite you to come and take the MSP marketing quiz and in just three minutes, you're going to get a 300 and seat scan of your business where you can identify the one or two tactics that help you find more time engaging among your people help generate more leads in your own. Really simple. Just click on the link in the show notes and if you have enjoyed this episode, we'd love to get some feedback from you by means of a rating review on Spotify or iTunes or your podcast platform. Your choice. We really appreciate every single one. Now you can go enjoy the rest of your day and we look forward to your tonight and connecting with you soon.